Just came up with a few ideas for the next version...

I think this is the right place for this information.

 

At the original database, CV Kuznetsov can only wear 36 aircraft.

 

David Miller, "The Illustrated Directory of Warships, London, 2001", says that "the planned capacity of the ship is 58 aircraft". And Chris Chant, "Barcos de Guerra, Alcobendas, 2006", says that it is able to carry between 60 and 70 aircraft.

 

If you are editing your own database, as I do, you can modify this entry.

 

A typical air wing of 60 aircraft could be:

36*Su-33 Flanker.

12*Ka-25 Hormone A, ASW.

6*Ka-25 Hormone B, Search.

6*Ka-31 Helix, AEW.

 

David Miller also says that a 58 aircraft air wing would be composed of 36 Flankers, 16 ASW helos and another 6 helos with other capabilities.

jugasa77, I've moved your post here rather than the HCDB requests thread.

 

I interpreted your post as an "informational" one, for database editors generally, rather than a specific request or suggestion that the HCDB entry for the CV Kuznetsov be changed.

 

If I'm wrong, and you are in fact making that suggestion, please see the FAQ section re What is the HCDB?

 

To summarize, the HCDB tries to draw its information from the latest Harpoon 4 annexes, and where appropriate or necessary, from other reliable sources.

 

For the time being, re CV Kuzetsov specifically, I'm comfortable with the "36 a/c in the air wing" figure. In fact, I think the operational air wing in real life is somewhat smaller than that.

Maybe this will confuse the heck out of you, jugasa77, but we'll work through it.

 

I think maybe this particular edit to the DB will not cause you any significant problems. I hasten to add that this may be an exception, and cannot be reliably repeated with respect to other edits of the DB.

 

Editing the aircraft capacity of the CV Kuznetsov to increase it to 60 may not (and I repeat, may not) cause crashes of the scenario for players who subsequently load your scenario and an unedited copy of the HCDB.

 

The only way to tell for sure would be to test it.

 

Again, for clarity, this may be an exception to the general rule.

Some references about the Kuznetsov's air wing:

The last Flight International World Air Force inventory list only 23 Flanker in the Russian Navy (Su-33 and some Su-27 for proficiency/training).

The production of the Su-33 is estimated near of only 24 planes.

 

The space occupied for the 12 x SS-N-19 (angled mounts) in the front of the carrier precludes the use of a big underdeck hangar (In my own DB I use a estimated capacity of 52 planes).

 

In the 1995 deployment to Adriatic Sea, his composition was (as Air International and other media of the time):

16 x Su-33

8 x Su-25UTG (carrier training variant, unarmed, production estimated in 10)

10 x Ka-27/32 (maximum 28 x Ka-27/32).

 

Jane's Fighting Ships 2004-2005 (we can read also: "... the russian claim a top limit of 60"):

18x Su-27K

4 x Su-25UTG (carrier training variant, unarmed, production estimated in 10)

15x Ka-27

2 x Ka-27 RDL (Ka-31 AEW)

 

Conway's All The World Fightings Ships 1947-1995:

18- 24 x Su-27K

12-6 x Helix a/C

 

In service estimated dates:

CV Kuznetsov: 1991.

Ka-25PL Hormone-A: 1967

Ka-25Ts Hormone-B: 1967 http://www.aviastar.org/helicopters_eng/ka-25c.php

Ka-27PL Helix-A: 1981.

Ka-31 Helix-AEW: 1992. (Or 2002: http://www.deagel.com/Tactical-Support-Hel...a000767002.aspx )

Ka-29TB Helix-B(Assault): 1985 http://www.aviastar.org/helicopters_eng/ka-29.php

i.e. only the more modern Helix in Kuznetsov, I never read about Hormone in the carrier air wing. Also, I think is redundant the use of Ka-25Ts Hormone-B and Ka-27 RDL.

At the original database, CV Kuznetsov can only wear 36 aircraft.

 

David Miller, "The Illustrated Directory of Warships, London, 2001", says that "the planned capacity of the ship is 58 aircraft". And Chris Chant, "Barcos de Guerra, Alcobendas, 2006", says that it is able to carry between 60 and 70 aircraft.

 

If you are editing your own database, as I do, you can modify this entry.

 

A typical air wing of 60 aircraft could be:

36*Su-33 Flanker.

12*Ka-25 Hormone A, ASW.

6*Ka-25 Hormone B, Search.

6*Ka-31 Helix, AEW.

 

David Miller also says that a 58 aircraft air wing would be composed of 36 Flankers, 16 ASW helos and another 6 helos with other capabilities.

Here is an example of what might have happened.

 

I think that this scenario was originally Hold Tight. If you look at group ZLc, you will see that there are two Kuznetsov carriers in it. One had 60+ a/c when I opened up the scenario. I added the Varyag along with 36 Flankers (the max allowed by the SE). I'm not sure how the author managed to get 60 planes on the Kuznetsov, but he did. I suspect that he used the technique proposed by CV32.

 

There may be another possible work-around to the air group limitation. It isn't perfect, but it is guaranteed to work. If you maximize the number of planes aboard (i.e. Varyag), you can still add more planes after the scenario begins. If you decide to ferry over 100 additional Flankers from the land base, the normal carrier limitation is ignored. Provided that you don't need the planes immediately, this could work.

Kuznetsov.zip

More data from "Su-33, Naval Epopee", by Andrei Fomin, 2003, ISBN 5-93511-006-7, a very impressive and detailed book (in russian, and my russian is very bad !!):

 

Moskva-Leningrad Pr.1123:

Standard disp: 11900

Speed: 30

Total Aircrafts: 14 (Hangar capacity 12+2)

12 x Ka-25 Hormone-A

1 x Ka-25Ts Hormone-B

1 x Ka-25PS Hormone-C

SSM: none

SAM: 2xTwin Shtorm (Total 48 SA-N-3)

Guns: 2xTwin 57mm AK-725

ASW:

1x Twin Vikhr (Total 8 x SUW-N-1)

2 x RBU-6000

2 x Quintuple 533mm TT

Hull: Moose Jaw/MG-342 Orion

Towed: Mare Tail/MG-325 Vega

 

Kiev-Minsk Pr.1143.1/.2:

Standard disp: 30500 (Minsk 30535)

Speed: 30

Total Aircrafts: 22 (Hangar capacity ?)

16-20 x Ka-25 (Ka-27 post-1987)

2 x Ka-25Ts Hormone-B

2 x Ka-25PS Hormone-C

12-20 x Yak-38 Forger

SSM: 8 (+8 reloads) x Basalt (SS-N-12)

SAM:

2xTwin Shtorm (Total 96 SA-N-3)

2xTwin Osa-M (Total 40 SA-N-4)

Guns:

2xTwin 76mm AK-726 (Total 3400 rounds)

8 x AK-630M(rotary) (Total 32000 rounds)

ASW:

1x Twin Vikhr (Total 16 x SUW-N-1)

2 x RBU-6000(120 RGB-60 rockets)

2 x Quintuple 533mm TT (SET-65 or SET-53)

Hull: Bull Horn/MGK-335 Platina + Moose Jaw/MG-342 Orion

Towed: Platina (Piranha/Steer Hide, as High Tide database towed complement to Platina)

(Also, the first two ships are a simpler ECM suite than the second two ships)

 

Novorossiisk(Kiev Mod.) Pr.1143.3:

Standard disp: 31900 Speed: 30

Total Aircrafts: 36 (Hangar capacity ?)

16-20 x Ka-25 (Ka-27 post-1987)

2 x Ka-25Ts Hormone-B

2 x Ka-25PS Hormone-C

12-20 x Yak-38 Forger

SSM: 8 (+8 reloads) x Basalt (SS-N-12)

SAM:

2xTwin Shtorm (Total 96 SA-N-3)

2xSextuple SA-N-9 (total 96 SA-N-9)(Never fitted, as per data annex and photographic evidence)

Guns:

2xTwin 76mm AK-726 (Total 3400 rounds)

8 x AK-630M(rotary) (Total 32000 rounds)

ASW:

1x Twin Vikhr (Total 16 x SUW-N-1)

2 x RBU-6000(120 x RGB-60 rockets)

Sonar:

Hull: Horse Jaw/MGK-355 Polinom

Towed: Horse Tail/MGK-355 Polinom

 

Admiral Gorshkov (ex-Baku) Pr.1143.4:

Standard disp: 33440

Speed: 29

Total Aircrafts: 36 (Hangar capacity 26)

8 x Ka-27

4 x Ka-31

2 x Ka-27PS

22 x Yak-38M Forger

SSM: 12 (no reloads) x Basalt (SS-N-12)

SAM: 4xSextuple SA-N-9 (total 192)

Guns:

2xSingle 100mm AK-100 (total 600 rounds)

8 x AK-630M(rotary)(total 48000 rounds)

ASW:

2 x RBU-12000 (60 x 2 rockets)

Sonar:

Hull: Horse Jaw/MGK-355 Polinom

Towed: Horse Tail/MGK-355 Polinom

 

Admiral Kuznetsov Pr.1143.5:

Standard disp: 46540

Speed: 29

Total Aircrafts: 52 (Hangar capacity 36)

18 x Ka-27/Ka-29

4 x Ka-31

2 x Ka-27PS

26 x Su-27K/MiG-29K

SSM: 12 x Granit (SS-N-19)

SAM:

4xSextuple SA-N-9 (total 192)

8xTwin Kasthan/Kortik (total 256 SA-N-11)(total 48000 x 30mm rounds for these rounds)

Guns: 6xAK-630M(rotary)(total 24000 x 30mm rounds for these mounts)

Hull: Horse Jaw/MGK-355 Polinom

 

Ulyanovsk Pr.1143.7(Unfinished):

Standard disp: 75000

Speed: 30

Total Aircrafts: 70 (Hangar capacity ?)

16 x Ka-27

2 x Ka-27PS

24 x Su-27K

24 x MiG-29K

4 x Yak-44RLD

SSM: 12 x Granit (SS-N-19)

SAM:

4xSextuple SA-N-9 (total 192)

8xTwin Kasthan/Kortik (total 256 SA-N-11)

Guns: 8 x AK-630M(rotary)

 

Some other data in:

http://warfare.ru/?lang=&linkid=1738&catid=268

http://worldweapon.ru/flot/1143.1.php (states 1143.4 SS-N-12 reloads as 12, and her speed as 32 knots).

(Note: Post edited 12/24/08 with the data of the two books mentionated in my next two posts).

Remember, my russian is very poor, but more data (some contradictory) from Тяжелый авианесущий крейсер «Киев»/TAKR "Kiev", by V.P. Sablotskiy, Modelist-Konstruktor 7/2003 ( http://modelist-konstruktor.ru/mr/0307 )

 

Kiev Pr.1143.1:

Lenght: 273 m

Standard disp: 30500

Speed: 32

 

Total Aircrafts: 30 (Hangar capacity 22? Hangar dimensions 130x22,5x6,6 m./ Hangar dimensions Pr. 1143.4 130x22,8, as states "Su-33, Naval Epopee", basically the same space capacity)

Some early air wings:

20 x Yak-38 Forger and

2 x Ka-25PS Hormone-C

or

20x Ka-25PL (Ka-27 post-1987) and

2 x Ka-25PS Hormone-C

 

Ordnance storage:

RN-28 nuclear bomb x 18

Kh-23/AS-7 Kerry ASM x 143

R-3S/AA-2A Atoll AAM x 176

S-5 unguided rocket x 4800

SB-500 bomb x 30

RBK-250 bomb x 20

AT-1 ASW torpedo x 30

PLAB 250-120 Deep Charge x 40

RGB-NM sonobuoy x 504 (similar to RGB-56/BM-1)

"Poplabok" radiobuoy? x 300

OMAB-25 phosphorous marker buoy x 300

 

SSM: 8 (+8 reloads) x P-500/Basalt (SS-N-12)(That's a textual description, without indo-arabic numerals, and I don't understand very well the text)

 

SAM:

2xTwin Shtorm (Total 48x2=96 SA-N-3, I suppose the same quantity, definitely, also for Pr.1143.2 Minsk and Pr.1143.3 Novorossiysk)

2xTwin Osa-M (Total 20x2=40 SA-N-4)

Guns:

2xTwin 76mm AK-726 (Total 3400 rounds)

8 x AK-630M(rotary) (Total 32000 rounds)

 

ASW:

1x Twin Vikhr (Total 16 x SUW-N-1)

2 x RBU-6000(Total 120 RGB-60 rockets)

2 x PTA-53-1143 Quintuple 533mm TT (Total 10x2=20 torpedoes, SET-53 and/or SET-65)

ooh, always nice to see magazine capacities/loads

I'm reading now (very poorly, remember) Тяжелые авианесущие крейсера «Минск», «Новороссийск», «Баку»/TAKR "Minsk", "Novorossiysk", "Baku", also by V.P. Sablotskiy, Modelist-Konstruktor 4/2004 ( http://modelist-konstruktor.ru/mr/0404 )

More definitive data (correcting here some of the previous data. I do some editing in my first post):

 

Novorossiisk(Kiev Mod.) Pr.1143M/.3:

Standard disp: 31900 Speed: 30

Total Aircrafts: 36 (Hangar capacity ?)

SSM: 8 (+8 reloads) x Basalt (SS-N-12)

SAM:

2xTwin Shtorm (Total 96 SA-N-3)

2xSextuple SA-N-9 (total 96 SA-N-9)(Never fitted, as per data annex and photographic evidence)

Guns:

2xTwin 76mm AK-726 (Total 3400 rounds)

8 x AK-630M(rotary) (Total 32000 rounds)

ASW:

1x Twin Vikhr (Total 16 x SUW-N-1)

2 x RBU-6000(120 RGB-60 rockets)

533mm TT (None)

Sonar:

Hull: Horse Jaw/MGK-355 Polinom

Towed: Horse Tail/MGK-355 Polinom

 

Admiral Gorshkov (ex-Baku) Pr.1143.4:

Standard disp: 33440

Speed: 29

Total Aircrafts: 36 (Hangar capacity 26)

SSM: 12 (no reloads)(literally, без перезарядки)

SAM: 4xSextuple SA-N-9 (total 192)

Guns:

2xSingle 100mm AK-100 (total 600 rounds)

8 x AK-630M(rotary)(total 48000 rounds)

ASW:

2 x RBU-12000 (60x2 rounds)

553mm TT None

Sonar:

Hull: Horse Jaw/MGK-355 Polinom

Towed: Horse Tail/MGK-355 Polinom

More news about the Air Wing of Kuznetsov:

MiG-24K to replace Su-33 (in french):

http://www.meretmarine.com/article.cfm?id=111215

In short, Russia to replace the Su-33 with about 24xMiG-29K from 2015.

Germane to the discussion: http://yurizhukov.com/files/CWaS_339-359_s...al_aviation.pdf

 

The project 1160 supercarrier could be added to the DB, available from 1975 or so, with the plan to have 3 in service in 1986. Names could be taken up from the Sovietskii Soyuz class:

 

Sovietsky Soyuz ("Soviet Union")

Sovietskaya Ukraina ("Soviet Ukraine")

Sovietskaya Rossiya ("Soviet Russia") -

Sovietskaya Belorussiya ("Soviet Belorussia")