Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Posted

 

Greetings All,

I am noticing possible errors in how the game engine designates an icon for unknown contacts and/or allows attacking unknown contacts.  Apologies if these are known issues.  I still have a bunch of reading to do in the forum.  Also, once I figure out what test scenario files to upload, will do.

Examples: 

Small RED surface contact

-          BLUE platform: Bunker Hill class (Monterey (CM)) radiating air and surface radars.  Sonar is in passive. 

-          Weather report is perfect with visibility at 19 nm.

-          A small surface contact is identified by passive sonar at 22 nm.  In the scenario the unit (Najin) is designated RED.  The unit is not radiating and is beyond visual range.

-          Initially, the contact icon is yellow (no positive position fix). 

-          Subsequent to obtaining a position fix with radar, the icon becomes red and weapons range circles for the contact are shown in the GROUP and UNIT maps.  However, the target description remains small surface contact (unknown). 

-          It would seem the contact icon should remain yellow without range circles until a unit is identified (not in an unknown state). 

-          A couple of screen shots follow below to illustrate the narrative.

image.png.1d39ba335329befb88083ca2d3249170.png

image.png.20ec5a620b334e5bd2c3a65fe7bc1f30.png

 

Large NEUTRAL (GREEN) surface contact

-          BLUE platform: Bunker Hill class (Monterey (CM)) standard interval for intermittent radiating surface radar.  Air search is off.  Sonar is in passive. 

-          Weather report is perfect with visibility at 19 nm.

-          A large surface contact is identified by radar at 22 nm.  In the scenario the unit (Udaloy) is designated NEUTRAL.  The unit is not radiating and is beyond visual range. 

-          Upon identification, the unit icon is GREEN even though the unit is still unknown.  Appropriately, there are no weapon range circles.

-          Also, observed that I cannot attack the contact when the icon is GREEN even though it is unknown. 

-          When Monterey radar switches off, the contact icon becomes YELLOW.  I can now attack the unknown contact. 

-          It would seem the contact icon should be yellow from the beginning, with ability to attack, until a positive unit identification is made. 

-          A screen shot follows below to illustrate the narrative.

image.png.c075e9b18eb44b3290ce1dbbd5ac43ea.png

Posted

I really like how you indicate what you think the behavior should be.  I look forward to you posting the test scenario (zipped up).

 

Others, @donaldseadog, any insights fueled from your tools?

Posted

Hi there Geoaegis,

I think I know what you are highlighting, the step from unknown side to known side sometimes seems to be by magic, also if detail is known about a contact it is not remembered and so if the strength of the contact degrades such as when you turn off your radar then that knowledge is lost.

Also there is a related matter that in HC we always know our friends, but in reality this is not always the case and sometimes friend fires on friend.

I don't know the details on how the game works it but determining Enemy/Neutral/Unknown never seems to me to be definitely related to the quality of knowledge regarding the contact but perhaps it should.

I have a few tools that look at some aspects of how the game operates so I'll play that zipped up test and see if I can observe anything meaningful.

Don

 

 

Posted
3 minutes ago, donaldseadog said:

Hi again Geo, can you tell me which BattleSet this is from, it is one of the custom battleset (the .scz file type shows this) is it one downloaded from here (if so which one) or one you have made?

It's OK, I think I found it is Malacca. This is a bit of a funny battleset as it has the same prefix as custom ones, not a unique prefix making it easy to ID.

Posted

Hi Don,

The battleset is one that I created.  But, I found some bugs in the original battleset, as I created the battleset then installed the 2024.001 update.  I've redone the battleset at this point but only the map and some narrative.  The battleset AO supports a DPRK-ROK-Japan conflict that is a prelude to China advancing it's interests.  RUS also has their spoon in the soup, which results in some "hypothetical" equipment availability for DPRK.  Working on the first scenario while in parallel learning how the HCE AI functions, identifying and testing newly added weapons/mounts/ships and validating availability of the armament, aircraft, etc.. 

Please let me know if I can provide an other files to help your investigation.  

Geo

Posted

Your scenatio for the test runs ok in malacca. I have a little info I can give you tonight when I wind up the computer again. It was too late last night.

I actually can't tell you much but maybe just seeing a little more on how it works will let you progress.

Your scheme for the scenario sounds great.

Don

Posted

The game tracks the various detection qualities for each unit in two different variables.

one variable I'll write as UnitShowing contains a value which indicates jointly whether the opponent has an exact fix or not and whether the opponent knows it's side or not.  I don't know the mechanism for it's calculation.

the second variable I'll write as UnitData which indicates (amongst other things) the following related to the units enemy:

 ' has no location';
 ' has fix including altitude/depth'
 ' has exact fix'
 ' has approx location'
 ' has bearing only';
 ' - knows broad type';
 ',knows  size';
 ',knows  Class';
 ', knows Name';   

So for this purpose the info for both quality of location and quality of platform ID are in this variable. Again I don't know exactly how it is determined. It will relate to the value of the observer platforms' detectors, visibilty and the values of the observed units qualities such as radar cross section, hull noise, visual cross section distance mast height (or altitude).

As there are two variables I assume there are two separate (maybe related) mechanisms for determining if the side is known on the one hand and how much is known regarding the physicals of the platform and how accurately it's position is known. The variables are continuously updated and not remembered.

I think that the biggest thing to consider is that the best information collected isn't retained for so long as the contact is valid, which should be the real circumstance (although I have read of circumstances where confusion has occurred regarding multiple contact situations). Which means you need to remember yourself (although the game itself won't penalise you for shooting down or sinking an innocent neutral).

Here are two screen shots I have of the instant in your game (I played Blue) when red group ZZS detects the blue group AAS - and fires missiles. I played it with my tool AI_window operating, it's console is in the lower left of screen and near the upper right of the console you will see contact information listed for respectively the red ship unit and one of the missiles it's fired. The Red unit in the group window is some what hidden by the yellow missile. The side and exact location of the red ship is known and in the next line all of it's attributes such as vessel class, vessel name etc are known. For the missile however the side is unknown (AI doesn't make assumptions I guess) and we know the class (type) of missile and have an exact position. So the solid yellow icon for missile and solid red icon for the ship.

I know this doesn't answer your question but I hope it helps you a little to understand what is happening.

 

image.thumb.png.689398d130a43f9158e584733e46a20f.png

image.thumb.png.06921c4eee7a1efe12e26e544cf7f97a.png

  • Like 1
Posted (edited)

An extra small thing, the colour relates to unit side as known by the player rather than whether there is an exact fix. In the case of an exact fix the icon is an icon only but in case of inaccurate fix the icon will be surrounded by an uncertainty trapezium.

Edited by donaldseadog
Clarify detail and correct spelling
Posted

Thanks Don.  Great inside into the mind of the AI.

I am pondering how to include a NEUTRAL in a conflict that really is not NEUTRAL.  In my scenario, looking to include an element of a proclaimed NEUTRAL attempting to distract and disrupt.  For example, JAMMING and FONOPS.    I will run several test scenarios to see what I can work through.  

Posted

Wow, that would be a hard one. There are 'secret air bases' but they still need to be written as Enemy, not neutral. And in reality they are just not a preknown base that is on a map of the world and thus of a known position.

There are weather patterns, that do not have a side, but aren't a platform and have no weapons etc, maybe game changes could be made and they could be weaponised.

 

Once upon a time neutrals did have some tendency towards helping the AI enemy, I was having my position clearly given away and it turned out to be neutral whales. That no longer occurs.

I've no idea what happens if you have a neutral with eg strong ECM equipment ( maybe try a Growler) on patrol.

Maybe there could be added to a database an effectively non detectable platform (it would still need to be an enemy) that had ECM ability.

I see a "Wish List" item perhaps. I might fiddle about with the idea,

Posted

Well one quick test and a neutral growler will corrupt player and enemy radar, if thats a help.

(Interesting the radar rang rings for the neutral don't show, I've never noted this before)

image.thumb.png.6945acba6dcb50a6be9bf2b0f37756dd.png

Posted

I now wonder if things like a neutral mine field work, I don't think so as they are basically a stationary submarine and have to fire  a virtual torpedo to attack. A shame maybe there is no ramming?

This subject does touch on something I've done where under certain circumstances a neutral is turned to an enemy. I think it could be done on the basis of whether the player is detecting them or not, so if undetected they could be enemy and if detected turn to neutral. My mind is starting to boggle :P

 

Posted

If you run this export .dll you'll find in the attack page the cheat switch that changes sides of groups, I forget the order it happens, I think neutrals go to enemy, enemy to neutral and player to neutral but that might be wrong I hardly ever use it. There might be a mouse hover hint to tell you?

Also if you run this and attack a neutral it will be very unhappy and become your enemy :)

https://harpgamer.com/harpforum/files/file/809-toolbox/

 

  • Like 1

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...