Naval Gunnery targeting snorkling subs

[donaldseadog]

Does anyone recall an 'issue' (maybe a long time back) regards ships attacking snorkeling subs?

I vaguely  remember something about it, and want to look to see if there might be problems with having ships being able to attack snorkeling subs with naval gunnery.

I want to have snorkeling subs as a simulation of ukraine type semi submerged fast attack drones.

[TonyE]

I don't recall an issue but can provide some related information.

Effects.c::FireGuns(...) only allows guns to fire against units >= SeaLevel where SeaLevel is the next altitude band above Snorkel.  In other words, the code won't fire guns at Snorkeling submarines. 

That could be changed, I would imagine one would want a lower hit chance for a snorkeling submarine as compared to a surfaced sub.

See H3 paper 4.2.3.2 Periscope Depth for a description of this depth.  The base H3 paper rules do not accommodate gunfire vs. submarines.  I did not check any of the addons nor the H4 nor H5 rules.

[aviator]

Sorry to partially veer off the subject, but I just recalled a similar issue where air ASW assets would attack an force a submarine to surface, making it impossible to sink it, as it is now apparently a "surface" ship. Is this intended behaviour?

[TonyE]

2 hours ago, aviator said:

Sorry to partially veer off the subject, but I just recalled a similar issue where air ASW assets would attack an force a submarine to surface, making it impossible to sink it, as it is now apparently a "surface" ship. Is this intended behaviour?

It is likely expected but unintended behavior.  The code that decides valid weapons for a given situation does not have the flexibility to consider every situation so sometimes it answers incorrectly.  More than a decade ago I wrote comprehensive code but it was too slow so I scrapped it.  

That said, if you manage to catch a saved game, especially in a small or purpose-built test scenario, please post up the scenario and save for me to analyze.

[aviator]

On 10/29/2024 at 3:13 PM, TonyE said:

That said, if you manage to catch a saved game, especially in a small or purpose-built test scenario, please post up the scenario and save for me to analyze.

First attempt at recreating this did not produce the results I've observed earlier. I made a scenario where a P-3 damaged a Typhoon that subsequently surfaced. In this scenario Air ASW platforms were still able to fire torps on the surfaced sub. I'll keep trying to get an example savegame.

[broncepulido]

On 3/5/2024 at 3:22 PM, TonyE said:

I don't recall an issue but can provide some related information.

Effects.c::FireGuns(...) only allows guns to fire against units >= SeaLevel where SeaLevel is the next altitude band above Snorkel.  In other words, the code won't fire guns at Snorkeling submarines. 

That could be changed, I would imagine one would want a lower hit chance for a snorkeling submarine as compared to a surfaced sub.

See H3 paper 4.2.3.2 Periscope Depth for a description of this depth.  The base H3 paper rules do not accommodate gunfire vs. submarines.  I did not check any of the addons nor the H4 nor H5 rules.

I want clearly that gun capability (and submarines launching short range SAMs to ASW aircrafts!), but in the game engine anti-ship missiles are usually capables against surfaced submarines (in fact that was the Harpoon missile origin, to sunk surfaced Soviet SSGN type Echo before they launched their anti-ship missiles).

[donaldseadog]

On 11/25/2024 at 1:55 AM, broncepulido said:

I want clearly that gun capability (and submarines launching short range SAMs to ASW aircrafts!),

I was thinking about the developing systems using semi-submerged drones, in HC I see a snorkeling sub as the closest sim. I recall some of the ukraine drones were being fitted with short range SAM for self protection.

What weapons were the Russians using against the semi-sub drones? I guess if a genuine snorkeling sub there are differences to a sem-sub drone, as the drone would be vulnerable to a hit  where most gunnery aimed at a sub (even at snorkel) would skip off water surface as would be at a low angle (unless the round hit the snorkel)

Maybe a CIWS would be at a trajectory angle steep enough ?

[broncepulido]

On 11/30/2024 at 3:08 AM, donaldseadog said:

I was thinking about the developing systems using semi-submerged drones, in HC I see a snorkeling sub as the closest sim. I recall some of the ukraine drones were being fitted with short range SAM for self protection.

What weapons were the Russians using against the semi-sub drones? I guess if a genuine snorkeling sub there are differences to a sem-sub drone, as the drone would be vulnerable to a hit  where most gunnery aimed at a sub (even at snorkel) would skip off water surface as would be at a low angle (unless the round hit the snorkel)

Maybe a CIWS would be at a trajectory angle steep enough ?

I think not about the surface skip, historically even was some anti-submarine guns employed operationally, at short distances.

In fact I was searching for historical ones I remember, but found this recent example:

https://www.navylookout.com/the-kingfisher-gun-launched-anti-submarine-munition/

[broncepulido]

As historical example this 102mm one called "Shark", but I remember others WWI:

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WAMBR_ASW.php

 

Edit: ok, I see the other examples in the same page, named "5" (12.7 cm), 7.5" (19 cm) and 11" (28 cm) Howitzers".

[CV32]

On 11/29/2024 at 10:38 PM, donaldseadog said:

I was thinking about the developing systems using semi-submerged drones, in HC I see a snorkeling sub as the closest sim. I recall some of the ukraine drones were being fitted with short range SAM for self protection. What weapons were the Russians using against the semi-sub drones? I guess if a genuine snorkeling sub there are differences to a sem-sub drone, as the drone would be vulnerable to a hit  where most gunnery aimed at a sub (even at snorkel) would skip off water surface as would be at a low angle (unless the round hit the snorkel) Maybe a CIWS would be at a trajectory angle steep enough ?

 

The Russians have been using almost exclusively gun fire to attack naval drones generally, including machine guns from helicopters and deck mounted aboard ship.