Target Nominations

[pmaidhof]

I'd like suggestions for a tactical target for a relatively small strike package of A-6E, EA-6B, F-14 or F/A-18E, F/A-18F, F/A-18G. My target area is in the vicinity of the bridges in or around Madrid/Madrid Springs, NY.

 

It could be one of the bridges, although I'm not too stoked about that. Was thinking a command post or logistics base. If it's something odd like that, please suggest DP capacity for such.

 

The planes will be launched from Southampton Air National Guard Base on Long Island. They will fly generally north across LI Sound, CT, western MA, and then VT before making an approximate 90 degree turn for an approximate 80+nm run into upstate NY and onto the target area.

 

I'm planning on placing a GCI radar in Potsdam, NY, and perhaps some aircraft on strip alert. There will be some sort of local air defense at the target, based upon the actual target selection (suggestions welcome).

 

I plan on basing the environmental conditions on those in the actual target area when I run the scenario, i.e. tonight it would be "Tonight: Mostly clear, with a low around 58. West wind around 6 mph becoming calm."

 

Thanks

[DHarris]

How about a FARP? C-130 on the ground a few Cobras nearby and bunch of guys hitting the deck as you fly over.

[Brains]

There is a rail nexus (and maybe a rail yard?) in nearby Norwood... Rail is always a good target.

[pmaidhof]

There is a rail nexus (and maybe a rail yard?) in nearby Norwood... Rail is always a good target.

Thanks Frank. From these pictures it does/did not look like a beehive of activity, but it is the hypothetical scene of an important rail hub crowed with juicy targets. Feel the powers of your imagination

 

 

 

per yardlimit.railfan.net

[pmaidhof]

Not to be confused with this commuter rail yard in Brooklyn.

 

google map

[private]

Pete, there's an interesting and informative article on attacks on the rail lines in WWII, in this month's issue of Air Force Magazine.

 

Link here

[pmaidhof]

Pete, there's an interesting and informative article on attacks on the rail lines in WWII, in this month's issue of Air Force Magazine.

 

Link here

Thanks Brad...welcome back. I just scanned it, I look forward to reading tomorrow at the office.

[pmaidhof]

"On May 7, eight P-47s each dropped two 1,000-pound bombs on a 650-foot-long steel rail bridge over the Seine at Vernon. The bridge was demolished. Now, even the sharpest critics of bridge-bombing held their tongues. As May drew to a close, more low-level attacks by P-47s, B-26s, and other attack craft dropped bridge after bridge." P.56 Air Force Magazine/August 2007.

 

Was it simply a function of the defense that cause so many strikes to fail on that Paul-Something bridge in North Vietnam before they dropped it with LGB's?

[private]

"On May 7, eight P-47s each dropped two 1,000-pound bombs on a 650-foot-long steel rail bridge over the Seine at Vernon. The bridge was demolished. Now, even the sharpest critics of bridge-bombing held their tongues. As May drew to a close, more low-level attacks by P-47s, B-26s, and other attack craft dropped bridge after bridge." P.56 Air Force Magazine/August 2007.

 

Was it simply a function of the defense that cause so many strikes to fail on that Paul-Something bridge in North Vietnam before they dropped it with LGB's?

 

I'd say yes, because thick AAA/SAM defense makes for jittery iron bomb delivery, ... plus the nature of the construction of the Paul Doumer bridge was another factor. From the November 1985 issue of Air Combat (check out the bolded sections):

 

"Stopping the flow of men and materials southward was the primary USAF objective during the early years of US intervention in Vietnam. These first air strikes in the north were mainly at the railroads, but for political reasons, the US State Dept prohibited air operations against critical rail points in areas containing a dense civil population. These areas, including the capitol of Hanoi and suburbs within a 50 mi radius, escaped the severe destruction US fighter-bombers inflicted on much of the country. North Vietnam had few hard-surfaced roads and depended upon its railroad to move the large amounts of supplies and munitions necessary to sustain its aggressive operations in the south. Disrupting this critical flow became a major objective of US fighter-bombers as early as 1965 as they began regularly hitting the railroads. During the following two years more than 650 locomotives and freight cars, along with miles of trackage, marshaling yards and railroad repair shops, were systematically destroyed in a sustained bombing campaign. But the North Vietnamese soon became adept at making fast repairs in the tracks and in building bypasses around severely bombed-out sections. No sooner did USAF aircraft depart from the strike zone, laborers were out of their bomb shelters to fill in bomb craters and lay new track. US combat crews, repeatedly facing highly concentrated and accurate flak and SAMs over the target, became discouraged by the lack of effect their bombing had on the enemy. It was obvious a more effective way had to be found to stop the enemy from supplying its troops in the south. Much of the North Vietnamese railroad system was repeatedly hit during this USAF bombing campaign but critical sections continued to escape destruction, one of the most vital links being the Paul Doumer Bridge. This massive steel and concrete structure was located just NE of Hanoi and spanned the broad Red River. Two of the country's major rail lines, both originating in Red China - the enemy's chief source of war materials - met at the bridge. Another rail line, carrying freight from the major seaport of Haiphong, followed the north bank of the Red River for 40 mi before crossing over the Paul Doumer Bridge into Hanoi. A fourth rail line served the Thai Ngugen steel mill complex, one of the country's few industrial centers located 30 mi to the north, also crossed over the bridge. It seemed that every major railroad line in the northern section of the country had to use this single bridge to reach Hanoi before continuing its journey southward. Unfortunately, the bridge was located within one of the areas restricted by the State Dept. US military planners were convinced the destruction of the Paul Doumer Bridge would paralyze the country's rail system since it was believed the North Vietnamese lacked the sophisticated technology needed to repair it. As the supplies and munitions intended for troops in the south dwindled to a trickle, the North Vietnamese would have little choice but to agree to a peaceful settlement of their political differences. With the growing commitment of US combat forces and military and economic aid to the south failing to achieve the desired results, President Lyndon B. Johnson became increasingly frustrated. Presidential advisors were able to convince Johnson what was needed was an even more drastic show of determination by the US. In June 1967, the President reluctantly agreed to a new list of targets in the north which had previously been immune from bombing by US aircraft. High on this list of targets, to be known as Operation Rolling Thunder, Phase IV, was the Paul Doumer Bridge. Aerial recon photos showed the Paul Doumer Bridge to be a monstrous structure consisting of 19 sections and just over 1 mi in length, not counting the approach ramps. The bridge was 38 ft wide and carried a single narrow guage (1 m) track down the center and had a 10 ft wide asphalt paved highway, an extension of National Highway 1, located on each side of the track and used mainly for truck traffic. The bridge itself was supported by 18 huge concrete piers spaced roughly 270 ft apart. Built around the turn of the century by the French colonial government, the bridge was hailed as an engineering marvel when completed. [Emphasis mine]. The bridge was named in honor of Paul Doumer, the governor-general of French Indo-China, who had been instrumental in developing the country's railroad system at the time. Washington, still highly sensitive to a rising worldwide criticism of its bombing campaign against North Vietnam, wanted the bridge destroyed but only if civilian casualties could be held to a minimum. Max accuracy and results could be obtained by employing dive bombing in a medium-level attack. Tactical fighter-bombers from the 7th/13th Air Force, stationed at Royal Thai Air Force Base in Thailand, were chosen to fly the mission. The work of planning the operation was underway but it was soon evident that to destroy such a massive target, a substantial number of bombers would be needed. Total number of aircraft assembled for the mission would become the largest number ever sent to hit a single target in North Vietnam up to that date. The F-105D Thunderchiefs of the 355th TFW, stationed at Takhi, Thailand, and commanded by Col Robert M. White, were selected to lead the strike force. Following close behind White's 355th Wing would be the F-105Ds of the 388th TFW, under Lt Col Harry W. Shurr, who would take off from the 388th's base at Korat. Col Robin Olds' F-4C Phantoms of the 8th TFW at Ubon, Thailand, were assigned the job of protecting the bomb-laden Thunderchiefs, both to prevent interception by enemy fighters and to suppress ground fire. A total of 26 F-105D Thunderchiefs would make up the actual bomber strike force. Each aircraft was to carry two 3000 lb HE iron bombs shackled under its belly. It was believed a hit or near miss with a bomb load of that size would be sufficient to disintegrate the massive structure. As the Thunderchiefs and Phantoms came off the target, the job of refueling the aircraft in midair was assigned to the KC-135 tankers of Detachment I, 4258th Strategic Wing, based at U-Tapao, Thailand. As soon as the strike force departed from the area, RF-4C Phantoms of the 432nd Tactical Recon Wing, at Udorn, flying in pairs, were to go over the target and photograph the actual bomb damage. After the photos were printed a waiting courier aircraft was to rush them to Washington, DC, for assessment by Pentagon military planners. Some 5-10 min before the bomb-laden Thunderchiefs of the 355th and 388th TFWs reached the target area, a flight of F-105D Thunderchief "Wild Weasel" aircraft - each protected by two wingmen and all armed with anti-personnel bombs - was to make a sweep over the area. Their job was to hit SAM missile installations situated nearby protecting the bridge. Suppressing flak batteries near the target was the job of another four aircraft flight of F-4Cs. Flying high MiGCAP would be the F-4Cs of the 8th TFW. It would be the 8th's job to fend off expected interceptions by North Vietnamese MiG fighters. Orbiting high over the strike force would be several Douglass EB-66 Destroyer "College Eye" aircraft with their sophisticated ECM equipment. They were to jam enemy radar reception and alert the Phantom pilots flying MiGCAP should enemy fighters be detected approaching the formation. During the past year, North Vietnam had done a good job of preparing the defences of Hanoi against anticipated air attacks by US aircraft. SAM sites were situated all around the approaches to the city, in addition to batteries of fast-firing multiple-barrel 23mm automatic flak guns. There were also numerous emplacements of 37mm, 57mm and 85mm AA guns in the area. [Emphasis mine] Located a few minutes' flight time from the Paul Doumer Bridge were the major North Vietnamese Air Force bases of Phuc Yen and Gin Lam. Also, the entire inventory of MiG-17 and MiG-21 fighters stationed in the country could be found, armed and ready, at these two airfields. Within the last few days still another discovery was made. Recon flights had spotted newly installed batteries of radar-directed 85mm AAA in positions to protect each end of the Paul Doumer Bridge. A study of the aerial photos of the area immediately surrounding the bridge brought pessimistic predictions from the mission planners. It was their opinion the mission was going to be highly dangerous. The strike force would be flying directly into a blazing inferno of enemy shells and missiles and the loss rate was estimated to be as high as 10 percent of the aircraft involved. Yet despite these grim prospects, preparations continued with 11 August 1967 being set as the date the US fighter-bombers would hit the Paul Doumer Bridge. Shortly after dawn on the morning of 11 August 1967, Col Robert M. White, a former X-15 research aircraft test pilot and now commander of the 355th TFW stationed at Takhi, Thailand, led his F-105Ds roaring into the air, each burdened with a pair of 3000 lb HE bombs under the fuselage. At Ubon, 200 mi away and at almost the same time, Col Robin Olds took the F-4Cs of the 8th TFW into the air and set a course to intercept Col White's formation. Olds, an experienced hand at air fighting, had been credited with 23 victories in the air and on the ground while flying a P-51 Mustang during WWII. In this war, more than 25 years later, Olds already claimed four North Vietnamese MiGs shot down and, at the time, held the title of top-scoring US fighter pilot in Vietnam. As the 355th and 8th TFWs headed north over Thailand, the F-105Ds of the 388th TFW from Korat, led by Lt Col Harry W. Shurr, joined the formation to bring up the rear. Heading north, the massive aerial formation was flying just above treetop level over the green, steaming jungle of Laos to avoid premature detection by enemy spotters on the ground. The strike force crossed the broad and meandering Red River some 95 mi NW of Hanoi. After cruising at 500 kt for much of the distance, power was increased to Mach 0.9 and the formation began a gradual climb to the run-in altitude of 10 000 ft. When the formation reached the NW end of "Thud Ridge", a large outcropping of granite rocks north of Hanoi used as a landmark by pilots flying over Vietnam, they changed course to almost due east and headed for the target. Now visible on the horizon was Hanoi and Paul Doumer Bridge. While still some miles from the bridge an EB-66C aircraft orbiting high overhead suddenly alerted the Phantoms flying above the strike formation. Their radar equipment had detected MiGs taking off from Phuc Yen airfield, just north of the city, evidently intent on intercepting the US fighter-bombers. A few minutes later the MiGs suddenly appeared dead ahead preparing to make a head-on attack on the bomb-laden Thunderchiefs. The enemy fighters roared in at top speed and a fired a series of AAMs at the strike force but none scored a single hit. The MiGs then streaked through the Thunderchiefs and quickly disappeared behind the formation before the F-4s could get them in their gunsights. Wisely, the MiGs did not return. Col White, in the lead formation, visually sighted the bridge and signaled the strike force to turn south and begin climbing in the near cloudless sky to the bombing altitude of 13 000 ft. With the Red River and the bridge visible below, the F-105Ds began peeling off in pairs, diving straight down at the target at an angle of 45 deg. To ensure lining up on the target the aircraft were required to remain on the bomb run for an eternally long 7 sec. Enemy flak batteries around the bridge, already aroused some minutes earlier by the appearance of the Wild Weasel and Iron Hand aircraft, opened up to fill the sky with deadly bursting shells. Releasing the pair of heavy bombs at between 7000-8000 ft, the F-105D pilots pulled up while at the same time dropping their dive brakes and making a hard right turn to streak downriver and get clear of the murderous flak as quickly as possible. The second F-105D to drop down in a dive was to score a direct hit on a span at the south end of the bridge and it sagged into the river. While diving at the bridge, the Thuds were to pass Mach 1 as they passed over the Ha Lo POW camp the infamous Hanoi Hilton - in the center of the city. When they returned from captivity some years later the US prisoners, mostly Navy and USAF fliers, would vividly recall the shattering sounds of the sonic boom as the Thuds roared by overhead with full afterburners on. The bombing raid, so close to Hanoi, panicked the prison guards and the POWs would remember the event as a real morale booster. One after another, the pairs of F-105Ds went down to release their bombload into the dense cloud of smoke and dust now billowing up from previous explosions. Within a few minutes the bomb strike was over. The F-105Ds climbed for altitude and formed up, then departed on a heading to the south. Behind them lay a badly shaken bridge. Aircraft from the first wave had dropped a span on the south end while the bombs from the second wave dropped two spans on the north end. Returning pilots also reported seeing scores of enemy troops, dead and injured, sprawled on the ground around the approaches to the bridge. Fortunately (and contrary to pessimistic predictions) not a single aircraft was lost during the bombing due to enemy ground fire and only a few of the aircraft suffered minor damage from the heavy flak. Just before the strike force reached the target area one of the recently installed 85mm flak batteries, positioned at the end of the bridge, was knocked out by an Iron Hand team of F-105s. AA guns at the opposite end of the bridge were also hit but received only minor damage. Two of the SAM sites located near the bridge were destroyed by the pre-strike Wild Weasel flights. Several other missile sites were also successfully suppressed by the F-4Cs. During the raid the enemy was able to fire only a handful of SAMs and none scored a single hit on the attacking aircraft. That day the Paul Doumer Bridge absorbed the effect of 94 tons of HE in direct hits and near misses during the bombing strike. Three of the bridge spans had been dropped into the Red River, bringing all rail and truck traffic into Hanoi to a halt. US military leaders were jubilant when they heard the news. The objective of the mission, disrupting rail and truck traffic into and out of Hanoi, had been accomplished and at relatively low cost. But in spite of what first appeared to be major and permanent structural damage to this crucial railroad bridge, the North Vietnamese were able to make repairs in a short time. The Paul Doumer Bridge was back in operation carrying both rail and truck traffic on 3 October 1967, only 53 days after the USAF bombing strike. The mission carried out on 11 August 1967 was to be only the first of what became a number of attempts to destroy the Paul Doumer Bridge. The next major assault on the bridge was made on 25 October 1967. This time, 21 F-105Ds dropped 63 tons of HE bombs and again put the bridge out of service. But less than a month later, on 20 November 1967, the bridge was again back in operation. On 14 December and again on 18 December 1967 more than 50 F-105Ds hit the bridge in a devastating bombing attack, dropping another 90 tons of the big 3000 lb HE bombs. Still more damage was inflicted on the now shaky structure. But even before these last bomb strikes the North Vietnamese realized their elaborate AA defences could not fully protect the bridge indefinitely. In time, US aircraft would be successful and work began on a railroad pontoon bridge, located about 5 mi downriver. To negate this new threat, a single US Navy Grumman A-6A Intruder lifted off the flight deck of the USS Constellation during the evening of 18 October 1967, carrying a load of 18 x 500 lb bombs. Its target was the railroad loading slip next to the pontoon bridge, now nearing completion. At the controls of the A-6A was Lt Cdr Charles Hunter. In the righthand seat, Lt Lyle Bull was peering intensely into the radar screen. The A-6A, traveling at top speed, roared across enemy territory at low level and in total darkness. It was Lt Bull's job to direct Hunter and to pick out navigational landmarks at the same time to avoid hitting high obstacles. About 18 mi from the target the sky suddenly lit up with bright glare from burning propellant as the two Navy fliers saw SAMs snaking towards them. Dropping down to just above treetop height, Hunter successfully evaded a total of 16 SAMs fired at his aircraft, one coming as close as 200 ft. As Bull identified the ferry slip on his radar scope the Intruder roared over and released its bombload. Hunter then pulled the aircraft up in a sharp climb for altitude as the two men watched a chain of rapid explosions erupt in the darkness below. The next day a recon aircraft went over and brought back photos which confirmed the ferry slip had been destroyed by a number of direct hits. An effort was also made to destroy the pontoon bridge while it was under construction but the effort failed. The enemy was able to complete the pontoon bridge and it was opened up to traffic in the middle of April 1968. During the 1967-68 air campaign, a total of 177 fighter-bombers were sent out and dropped 380 tons of bombs on the Paul Doumer Bridge before the President called a halt to the bombings in the north. As the USAF stepped up its effort to knock out the bridge the enemy had responded by increasing its air defences to a point where more than 300 AA guns and 84 SAM sites were situated around the bridge. These guns and missile sites were in addition to a growing number of MiG-17 and MiG-21 interceptors stationed at Phuc Yen and Gia Lam airfields, all assigned the job of protecting the bridge. US losses during this 1967-68 period included two aircraft shot down, both by SAMs, and another 15 aircraft damaged. It was not until the middle of 1972, some 5 years after the first bombing strike, that the Paul Doumer Bridge was finally damaged so extensively that it could no longer be used by the enemy. President Nixon ordered a resumption of the bombings in the north and the USAF began to deploy laser-directed "smart" bombs. A flight of F-4Es was able to home in on a laser beam directed at the target and release their 3000 lb bombs with uncanny accuracy. But by this time, the bridge, sagging and teetering from the effects of past raids, was no longer of crucial importance to the enemy. US military forces had already given up the struggle and were being withdrawn from the country. 8 months later a ceasefire went into effect which brought an end to US participation in the war in Vietnam."

 

An Air Force Magazine article that speaks to the Doumer bridge can be found here.

 

It took twelve heavy LGBs to put it out of action. They (F-4D Phantoms) returned the next day to drop several more spans with LGBs, and there were several more applications after that.

[Pappystein]

Part of the reason it took so many "Heavy" PGMs was the use of the M118 (3000lb) based GBU-9 (HOBOS) and GBU-11 (PAVEWAY I) bombs. These bombs have a thin wall case and have a 50% chance of failure AFTER striking a hardened target.

 

I believe in fact the first span was droped by GBU-9 EO guided bombs (think 1st generation GBU-15 with M118 warhead!) All the secondary attacks were made by aircraft armed with GBU-8 HOBOS (Mk84 derived HOBOS, directly lead to GBU-15) and GBU-10A Paveway I laser guided bombs. Most of these bombs were dropped by the 555th "Triple Nickle" TFS. The Elite GBU squadron of Vietnam (they tested almost ALL the 1st generation GBUs including Laser guided Cluster weapons (PaveStorm) LGBs (Paveway) and EO-GB (GBU-8, GBU-9.) The M118 was removed from service circa 1972 because of the easy break up of the bomb. The Mk84 warhead was more effective at any target other than a field full of troops.

 

Craig P

PS there was also an IR guided version of the GBU-8 known as the GBU-8A/B but it only had a AIM-9H sidewinder seeker on it and could only attack HOT targets (Power plants, Truck park with engines ideling etc)

[kcdusk]

I'd like suggestions for a tactical target for a relatively small strike package of A-6E, EA-6B, F-14 or F/A-18E, F/A-18F, F/A-18G. My target area is in the vicinity of the bridges in or around Madrid/Madrid Springs, NY.

 

The planes will be launched from Southampton Air National Guard Base on Long Island. They will fly generally north across LI Sound, CT, western MA, and then VT before making an approximate 90 degree turn for an approximate 80+nm run into upstate NY and onto the target area.

 

I'm planning on placing a GCI radar in Potsdam, NY, and perhaps some aircraft on strip alert. There will be some sort of local air defense at the target, based upon the actual target selection (suggestions welcome).

 

I plan on basing the environmental conditions on those in the actual target area when I run the scenario, i.e. tonight it would be "Tonight: Mostly clear, with a low around 58. West wind around 6 mph becoming calm."

 

Thanks

 

Agh, so here you are all hiding. Its been quiet in the general forum.

 

Question to original poster ... did you choose this "mission" because you live in the general area and know the layout?

 

Did you play it through, is there a AAR?

 

KC

[pmaidhof]

Hi KC,

 

As part of the ongoing deception plan, the thread morphed over to here I think.

[private]

Maskirovka!

[pmaidhof]

Question to original poster ... did you choose this "mission" because you live in the general area and know the layout?

 

Wife went to college in the general area so by talking about the area, building representations of it on my wargame table etc, gives me an excuse to wargame more, without any flak or other spousal interference...or so I think.