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Refueling behavior question


Joe K

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IIRC, that requires the launcher. I thought that I had downloaded that when Tony mentioned it (somewhere in earlier discussions), but darned it I can find it now, so I guess I'll need another copy... but in browsing the HCE forum, I don't see the download repository that people mention every so often. Where is that, anyway? :unsure:

 

Top bar on the right, look in HCE --> Tools/Mods

 

or

 

http://harpgamer.com/harpforum/index.php?a...mp;showfile=445

 

Thank you. Although I didn't find any such top bar for HCE --> Tools/Mods, I was able to obtain it via the provided link.

 

(Incidentally, during the download, I think I saw the reason why I couldn't find the previous download that I recalled: I had saved it in the HCE Demo directory structure... and that got replaced by a subsequent re-install. Man! I gotta remember to move stuff out of those sub-directories when doing a re-install... I've lost more files that way... :(

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I think this thread has been killed and run over. But I will add one more item about the original refueling topic. When I do a scenario that requires refueling, I am usually eager to get the refueling done and send the tanker(s) home. So I don't wait for the Staff Assistant to remind me. I guess I don't entirely trust that the reminder will happen. If you watch the group of aircraft after the refueling has begun, within a short time the bingo fuel number will jump. After that you can split off the tanker and send it home.

Now this may be gaming the game, rather than reflecting real life. But it works in HCE.

I no longer trust it, either - after these experiences. In the case of the 24 Hornets, I was tempted to manually split off the tanker, but I wasn't sure whether re-fueling had finished (because there was no SA advisory yet). Sort of a Catch-22, I guess. In any case, I then got distracted by managing the actions of the other strike groups, and consequently did not re-focus on the first group - until it was too late.

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I no longer trust it, either - after these experiences.

 

Some folks are more skittish than others. :P

 

In the case of the 24 Hornets, I was tempted to manually split off the tanker, but I wasn't sure whether re-fueling had finished (because there was no SA advisory yet).

 

You're aware that the group info will show 'Mission: *** w/Refuel' when it still has fuel and then 'Mission: *** No Refuel' when it does not, right?

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Notwithstanding the contradictions mentioned, consider the game mechanics. Your attack group flies to near the target. This takes about an hour.

What are the numbers for this? I was figuring longer than that... In fact, when I calculated, I was getting a two-and-one-half hour round trip... er, well, up to the point where they ran out of gas; not for the complete round trip.

 

OK, so with the corrected values:

 

So you are flying an atack mission with Hornets. Now the way BINGO fuel works in Harpoon, approximately, is that when the amount of cruise fuel left is somewhat more than the distance to base (source base or any base ?), the plane wants to RTB. Somewhat earlier, the plane will attempt to refuel if it can.

 

Maximum ONE-WAY range for these Hornets is 584 nm. So BINGO happens when they have flown OUT about 500 nm. Assuming that these Hornets are carrying Harpoons, and since the target is about 500 nm away, the attack point is about 450 nm from the source base. This is also approximately the point where automatic refueling would start. Note as well that the combined group flies at 415 nm, so refueling starts just about when the Falcons launch missiles, about an hour out from their base.

 

Preliminary calculations:

 

With a range of 1168 nm, at 490 kn, these planes can fly for 2.38 h. Subtract .2 h for launching the full group. Since they actually fly at 415 kn, their range is now 906 nm. However, they only flew 450 nm x 2, and they had some extra fuel from tanking, so the full group won't die UNLESS there is some further critical information that was not stated. Once again, there is an internal contradiction in the numbers provided, so there's no point in me continuing this calculation with the data available.

 

 

A couple of observations:

 

1. If indeed the missile launch point nearly coincides with the commencement of re-fueling, it raises the question of whether the missile launch somehow fouled up the re-fueling process... and ultimately led to the failure of the split-off advisory.

 

2. Please elaborate about the alleged contradiction of numbers, and particularly where the 450 miles comes from. Does this assume that the group flew only to the maximum launch range of the Harpoons, actually launched at that point, and then immediately started the return to base? If so, then perhaps that is where some of the perceived numerical inconsistency is coming in.

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In the case of the 24 Hornets, I was tempted to manually split off the tanker, but I wasn't sure whether re-fueling had finished (because there was no SA advisory yet).

 

You're aware that the group info will show 'Mission: *** w/Refuel' when it still has fuel and then 'Mission: *** No Refuel' when it does not, right?

 

Yes... but it was not at all clear whether that message indicated that re-fueling had completed - as opposed to only started. When I've watched those displays, along with the message log, I recall that when the first receiver plane starts re-fueling, that message changes to "... No refuel", and the fuel range circle for the group changes at that same time. I never recall seeing any further log messages about the re-fueling status until the SA advises it's time for split-off. So, as far as I knew, the SA message (and corresponding log message) is the only way to tell that re-fueling has finished.

 

Now, folks here appear to be saying that re-fueling actually "finishes" at the same time that the first a/c starts taking fuel. I was not aware of that odd nuance, and also it is inconsistent with the timing of the usual SA split-off message, so I had no idea that re-fueling actually "finishes" at the time it is reported as starting. Seems rather bogus to me.

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Yes... but it was not at all clear whether that message indicated that re-fueling had completed - as opposed to only started. When I've watched those displays, along with the message log, I recall that when the first receiver plane starts re-fueling, that message changes to "... No refuel", and the fuel range circle for the group changes at that same time. I never recall seeing any further log messages about the re-fueling status until the SA advises it's time for split-off. So, as far as I knew, the SA message (and corresponding log message) is the only way to tell that re-fueling has finished. Now, folks here appear to be saying that re-fueling actually "finishes" at the same time that the first a/c starts taking fuel. I was not aware of that odd nuance, and also it is inconsistent with the timing of the usual SA split-off message, so I had no idea that re-fueling actually "finishes" at the time it is reported as starting.

 

The actual refueling process, or more particularly, the time interval between receiving a message that refueling has started and the appearance of the 'No Refuel' info, seems to run about 30 to 60 seconds. (Grossly simplified for the purposes of the game, obviously, as RL refueling would take considerably longer). It has been my experience that you can rely on the appearance of the 'No Refuel' info as being an indicator that refueling is completed.

 

The actual prompt to split off the tanker may take considerably longer. In the quick test I just ran, with a group of 4x Hornets and 1x KA-6D, it took 8.5 minutes.

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The actual refueling process, or more particularly, the time interval between receiving a message that refueling has started and the appearance of the 'No Refuel' info, seems to run about 30 to 60 seconds. (Grossly simplified for the purposes of the game, obviously, as RL refueling would take considerably longer). It has been my experience that you can rely on the appearance of the 'No Refuel' info as being an indicator that refueling is completed.

 

The actual prompt to split off the tanker may take considerably longer. In the quick test I just ran, with a group of 4x Hornets and 1x KA-6D, it took 8.5 minutes.

When I've watched, there are two messages in the log: the first announces that the group is "arranging" for re-fueling, then a bit later, there is a second message saying that the first a/c in the group is receiving fuel (or something to that effect). I believe that second log message occurs at the same time that the Group Report changes and the range circle changes. I'm not sure, but it seems like there is a third log message about completion of re-fueling at the same time as the SA split-off advisory appears - but I usually focus on the SA message, so I'm not sure of a third log message, nor when it may occur.

 

8.5 minutes?? Is that game time or real time?

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When I've watched, there are two messages in the log: the first announces that the group is "arranging" for re-fueling, then a bit later, there is a second message saying that the first a/c in the group is receiving fuel (or something to that effect). I believe that second log message occurs at the same time that the Group Report changes and the range circle changes. I'm not sure, but it seems like there is a third log message about completion of re-fueling at the same time as the SA split-off advisory appears - but I usually focus on the SA message, so I'm not sure of a third log message, nor when it may occur.

 

There isn't a third message.

 

8.5 minutes?? Is that game time or real time?

 

Game time.

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Wow! That's really quick re-fueling for four planes and one tanker! :o

 

Well, don't get confused. The refueling process took about a minute. The 8.5 minutes was the interval between the receipt of the 'No Refuel' info and the prompt to split off the tanker.

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The actual refueling process, or more particularly, the time interval between receiving a message that refueling has started and the appearance of the 'No Refuel' info, seems to run about 30 to 60 seconds. (Grossly simplified for the purposes of the game, obviously, as RL refueling would take considerably longer). It has been my experience that you can rely on the appearance of the 'No Refuel' info as being an indicator that refueling is completed.

 

The actual prompt to split off the tanker may take considerably longer. In the quick test I just ran, with a group of 4x Hornets and 1x KA-6D, it took 8.5 minutes.

 

This is somewhat inconsistent with Donald''s result (post 7, this thread). This would suggest that there is one MORE variable: the nature of the tanker i.e. fuel delivery rate depends on the source.

 

To recap his results, the tanker refuels planes one after the other, and each one needs 3 min.

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This is somewhat inconsistent with Donald''s result (post 7, this thread). This would suggest that there is one MORE variable: the nature of the tanker i.e. fuel delivery rate depends on the source. To recap his results, the tanker refuels planes one after the other, and each one needs 3 min.

 

It may depend on the size of the group, but I am doubtful that the type of tanker aircraft is a factor.

 

There is only one field in the Aircraft annex and one kind of loadout in the Loadouts annex that actually makes an aircraft a tanker, and other than that, the only other variable I can think of is the range (although this also determined by the loadout).

 

Mine was a quick test this afternoon running the Westpac scenario Backyard, but certainly I invite others to try it and see what they come up with.

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Wow! That's really quick re-fueling for four planes and one tanker! :o

 

Well, don't get confused. The refueling process took about a minute. The 8.5 minutes was the interval between the receipt of the 'No Refuel' info and the prompt to split off the tanker.

Computerised simulations don't necessarily follow real life exactly, but the over all effect is (hopefully) sufficiently close for the purpose.

This simulation doesn't actually refuel each aircraft one at a time, it refuels one unit at a time. All planes in the unit are refuelled as soon as the tanker commences refuelling that unit. Now in real life it takes a lot longer than 0 secs to refuel a number of planes so what the simulation does is introduce a delay based on the number of planes being fuelled and the number of tankers. At the end of the delay it asks to split the tankers, or (if there are more units and fuel left) it goes on to commence fuelling the next unit which again is refuelled instantly but the computer calculates another delay....., until either the tanker is dry or all the units are refuelled, this is the end of the IFR simulation and I think a pretty good reflection on the general real life situation.

Try a IFR with a group including two receiving units and you'll see this more clearly.

So for a group with a single unit receiving fuel you can what I call cheat and split the tanker as soon as you have got the jump in bingo fuel, the increase in range ring or the change of "with refuel" to "no refuel", but to do so is cheating the simulation. If you try this with a multi receiving unit group you'll leave only the first unit with new fuel, the remaining units as they were and an 'empty' tanker cruising home of no further use.

If you want to play with IFR with out other distractions I recently put up an IFR exercise scenario in NACV section of scenario downloads.

In my simple test (with I think 12 aqnd 24 planes) I got results of 3 minutes per plane per tanker, Brad got 2.125 mins per plane for four planes an one tanker. Close enough in my book to say it's consistent and a smaller unit is slightly quicker per plane, any one want to test 1,2,3,4,...plane units to get the exact maths involved??

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...

So for a group with a single unit receiving fuel you can what I call cheat and split the tanker as soon as you have got the jump in bingo fuel, the increase in range ring or the change of "with refuel" to "no refuel", but to do so is cheating the simulation. If you try this with a multi receiving unit group you'll leave only the first unit with new fuel, the remaining units as they were and an 'empty' tanker cruising home of no further use.

...

 

What sort of implications would this condition produce? For instance, would the range circle now be bogus - or, if not, then which unit would it apply to: the one that got fuel or the others? Also, how would it affect the actual range of the overall group? Would some of the members of the group eventually crash, while leaving the re-fueled member still flying (given they don't reach base before that, of course)?

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Here are some results from a refueling test.

 

This is not by any means an exhaustive test, either by considering all variables, or by considering any variable completely. The air groups were formed up and sent to a distant patrol location. Fueling happened automatically in all cases.

 

Note that air groups contain at least one unit, each of which has at least one plane. All planes in a unit are identical, except that they can have different numbers of weapons remaining.

 

1) 1 x F/A-18C plus 1 x F/A-18C tanker. At some point, the message log stated that the refueling process was beginning. 30s later, the message log stated that a particular unit was being refueled. 3 min later, the tanker asked to be sent home.

 

2) 5 x F/A-18C plus 2 x F/A-18C tanker. The group consisted of 3 units: one with 2 tankers, one with one regular Hornet, and one with 4 regular Hornets. At some point, the message log stated that the refueling process was beginning. 30s later, the message log stated that the first unit (1 plane) was being refueled. 1.5 min later, the message log stated that the second unit was being refueled. 6 min later, the tanker asked to be sent home.

 

As soon a unit starts refueling, its fuel status jumps, i.e. the fuel is transferred instantaneously. There is a significant delay before the next unit gets its fuel.

 

These numbers are completely consistent with all previous results in this thread, except Brad's. But Brad's results are also consistent if he did not report the 3-min delay after fuel transfer and tanker splitting. This means that type of tanker and fuel transfer rate are not modelled.

 

Summary:

 

Time to refuel a plane unit = 3 min x number of planes / number of tankers. Because the fuel is transferred instantaneously, you can cheat by splitting the tanker off before the final delay period is complete. There will be cases where this does not make sense, because in RL, only one tanker can refuel a plane at a time.

 

Incidentally, when launching the 7-plane group, because the patrol point was beyond the range of the basic Hornet, I had to add the planes in the following order: tanker, Hornet, Hornet, tanker, Hornet, Hornet, Hornet, after which another tanker would have been required. The conclusions are obvious.

 

It also appears to be the case that the "bingo"status in the group window is the same as the "bingo" status for the first unit in the unit window.

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