Question about unexpected behavior of player's air groups during attacks

[Joe K]

This probably is two separate questions, but they are sort of opposite sides of the same coin, so:

 

I've noticed from time to time that when I have a strike group attacking a base or surface target that consists of multiple units, if one of the units gets destroyed, the attacking group will "lose" its target and go to loiter - instead of continuing to attack other surface/ground units in the target group. I must then re-initiate the attack. Is this normal? Am I doing something wrong?

 

A recent example of this was that I wanted to pick off the helos in an AI carrier group - to prevent it from detecting and destroying my nearby SAG. So, I launched several separate pairs of F-14s to "plink" the numerous helos in that carrier group. The F-14 groups were spaced apart, and when the first attacked and killed the first helo, it stopped attacking, followed quickly by all the other F-14 groups breaking off the attack and going to loiter. I re-initiated all the F-14 groups to attack, and the sequence repeated each time a helo was killed.

 

I've seen similar behavior in the past when attacking ships in a formation, or attacking a base with attached ground targets, where the attacking group(s) will break off the attack and go to loiter whenever a unit of the target group gets destroyed.

 

This doesn't seem right of its own accord, but is especially puzzling in view of this other converse, and much more undesirable, behavior:

 

When an air group is ordered to attack surface units of an AI group that has both air and surface units, and the attacking air group has both ATA and stand-off ATG weapons, the attacking group will continue moving towards the target (without notification) even after it has launched all of its ATG weapons. I believe the attacking group is continuing in an attempt to engage the air targets in these cases - even though no ATA attack has been ordered or authorized. This usually results in disaster by exposing the attacking group to SAMs.

 

Related to this, I've noticed at times that when an air group that has ATA and stand-off ATG weapons is ordered to launch a surface attack against an AI group that includes both air and surface targets, the dialog asking whether to attack air or surface targets will appear prior to launch... and then appear again after launch. Is this double dialog somehow causing the undesired effect - even though I may choose surface attack on each instance of the dialog? Also, is there some reason for having the dialog repeated? (It seems to be simply redundant - and consequently somewhat annoying - but... ???)

 

So my question is why these attack behaviors occur, because they aren't a desirable behavior in either case (IMO), and they also seem to be inconsistent with each other - that is, in one case, the attack stops after each target unit is destroyed, but in the other case, the attack continues regardless of whether (a) target unit(s) is (are) destroyed. Is this normal behavior? (If so, I have a wish list item or two)... or am I just doing something incorrectly when initiating these attacks?

 

Thanks.

[VictorInThePacific]

I think both cases are "normal"; i.e. that's my own experience with the modern versions of the game. BTW, this has been discussed and confirmed in these forums sometime in 2011.

 

So when a whole bunch of F-14 GROUPS attack a Soviet SAG, they actually fixate on air units attached to the SAG. Depending on how you arrange it, they may all go for the same helo. As soon as that helo is shot down, then all F-14s go to loiter, even those that have not fired. This is intentional, and you can be fairly certain it isn't going to get changed.

 

DON'T try this with anything but Tomcat/Phoenix, otherwise Mr. Grumble will introduce you to a world of hurt.

 

The other example uses a process that is inconsistent with the first process, which is always a bad idea for game design and playability. Once the attacking group has fired some weapons, it should also go to loiter. Perhaps this can be changed.

 

But keep in mind that this is a complex game. Most likely what happened is that the default used to be that attacking groups would continue attacking until weapons were exhausted, and then the process was changed for attacking groups with only AA weapons, thus leading to 2 default behaviours.

 

However, there is a default human-initiated process that will simply deal with most of this.

 

After you get the weapons allocation dialog for a group, immediately give that group a new order, either to continue attacking or whatever you like. This is intended to be part of the default process. This does not deal with groups that were attacking but lost the target somehow. However, you should be informed that these groups have lost the target, at which point you give those groups new orders. If a whole bunch of such groups lose the target simultaneously, you may have to give orders very rapidly, and you may even have to write down on paper which groups are involved. War is hell.

[Joe K]

...

 

However, there is a default human-initiated process that will simply deal with most of this.

 

After you get the weapons allocation dialog for a group, immediately give that group a new order, either to continue attacking or whatever you like. This is intended to be part of the default process. This does not deal with groups that were attacking but lost the target somehow. However, you should be informed that these groups have lost the target, at which point you give those groups new orders. If a whole bunch of such groups lose the target simultaneously, you may have to give orders very rapidly, and you may even have to write down on paper which groups are involved. War is hell.

 

The main problem with that is the flurry of Staff Assistant advisories that typically pop up around that same time, effectively preventing the player from issuing any such "revised" orders... and thus allowing the attacking group(s) to fly merrily into harm's way before the player can get any control of them. Of course, this would not be such a problem if only one attacking group was involved, and nothing else was going on anywhere else in the game. Normally, that's not a luxury that's available, though.

 

I guess, overall, I'd have to say that if the supreme commander is going to have to deal with all the various micro-managing of each group, then there ought to be provision to automatically handle some of these obvious "gotchas" on his behalf - as would be the case in RL, where subordinates would be responsible for keeping their assets out of trouble and carrying out the general orders. Or, alternatively, if the player "should" be wearing all the hats and micro-managing all these details himself, then there ought to be provisions in place that allow him opportunity to deal with all that stuff, rather than effectively denying him control at times. Just my two cents worth...

[VictorInThePacific]

...

 

However, there is a default human-initiated process that will simply deal with most of this.

 

After you get the weapons allocation dialog for a group, immediately give that group a new order, either to continue attacking or whatever you like. This is intended to be part of the default process. This does not deal with groups that were attacking but lost the target somehow. However, you should be informed that these groups have lost the target, at which point you give those groups new orders. If a whole bunch of such groups lose the target simultaneously, you may have to give orders very rapidly, and you may even have to write down on paper which groups are involved. War is hell.

 

The main problem with that is the flurry of Staff Assistant advisories that typically pop up around that same time, effectively preventing the player from issuing any such "revised" orders... and thus allowing the attacking group(s) to fly merrily into harm's way before the player can get any control of them. Of course, this would not be such a problem if only one attacking group was involved, and nothing else was going on anywhere else in the game. Normally, that's not a luxury that's available, though.

 

I guess, overall, I'd have to say that if the supreme commander is going to have to deal with all the various micro-managing of each group, then there ought to be provision to automatically handle some of these obvious "gotchas" on his behalf - as would be the case in RL, where subordinates would be responsible for keeping their assets out of trouble and carrying out the general orders. Or, alternatively, if the player "should" be wearing all the hats and micro-managing all these details himself, then there ought to be provisions in place that allow him opportunity to deal with all that stuff, rather than effectively denying him control at times. Just my two cents worth...

 

Actually, you only get one staff assistant message at a time. If you've got a whole bunch of stuff going on like this, then you should be running at 1:1 time. Even a military jet doesn't fly very far in one second. So in this particular situation, you know that you have assigned say 10 different plane groups to shoot down one helicopter. As soon as the helicopter goes down, 10 plane groups go to loiter and call in for orders. You did say that they go to loiter, right, and don't keep flying in? So either there is zero time delay between clearing one staff assistant and getting him again, in which case you will need to be writing stuff down, or there is enough time for you to press F3 with your left hand just after you hit ENTER with your right hand.

 

Maybe you should manage the final attack phase more carefully. You do have a point that there is a limit at which your ability to issue orders will be exceeded by the number of orders that need to be issued. Personally, I simply avoid playing such scenarios.

[donaldseadog]

The main problem with that is the flurry of Staff Assistant advisories that typically pop up around that same time, effectively preventing the player from issuing any such "revised" orders... and thus allowing the attacking group(s) to fly merrily into harm's way before the player can get any control of them. Of course, this would not be such a problem if only one attacking group was involved, and nothing else was going on anywhere else in the game. Normally, that's not a luxury that's available, though.

A technique I've only recently picked up for the situation when a lot is happening quickly is this:

You get an assistants message with various information and execution options, remember while it is showing the game is paused. You make your decision on what to do (and think about what is likely to happen next).

If your decision is to give orders to a group that is currently selected, or you can select that group from the message window

then press and hold the appropriate keyboard 'F' key (eg F1 attack, F3 course edit) while you mouse click the 'select', 'continue' or '1:1' option in the staff message window. Keep the key board button down until you see that you are in the appropriate box for your desired orders.

otherwise press and hold the ctrl alt P key combination (for 0 time compress) while mouse clicking the 'continue' etc. In 0 compression you can select your groups one by one and issue their orders, then go back to normal time (or what ever).

Now if in that very second many things are happening you will have to go through all the staff messages before you get to your appropriate box to do what ever, but that is reality, you can't split a second and make time stand still while you issue orders, but this technique does let you split two seconds and issue as many orders as you like, one for the supreme commander and one for the pilot officer in his Hornet etc, or what ever.

[Joe K]

The main problem with that is the flurry of Staff Assistant advisories that typically pop up around that same time, effectively preventing the player from issuing any such "revised" orders... and thus allowing the attacking group(s) to fly merrily into harm's way before the player can get any control of them. Of course, this would not be such a problem if only one attacking group was involved, and nothing else was going on anywhere else in the game. Normally, that's not a luxury that's available, though.

A technique I've only recently picked up for the situation when a lot is happening quickly is this:

You get an assistants message with various information and execution options, remember while it is showing the game is paused. You make your decision on what to do (and think about what is likely to happen next).

If your decision is to give orders to a group that is currently selected, or you can select that group from the message window

then press and hold the appropriate keyboard 'F' key (eg F1 attack, F3 course edit) while you mouse click the 'select', 'continue' or '1:1' option in the staff message window. Keep the key board button down until you see that you are in the appropriate box for your desired orders.

otherwise press and hold the ctrl alt P key combination (for 0 time compress) while mouse clicking the 'continue' etc. In 0 compression you can select your groups one by one and issue their orders, then go back to normal time (or what ever).

Now if in that very second many things are happening you will have to go through all the staff messages before you get to your appropriate box to do what ever, but that is reality, you can't split a second and make time stand still while you issue orders, but this technique does let you split two seconds and issue as many orders as you like, one for the supreme commander and one for the pilot officer in his Hornet etc, or what ever.

 

I'll have to tinker around with that, because I'm not quite sure I understand how that works... but certainly, if I could get it to go to 0 sec time compression while dealing with the Staff Assistant messages, that would help to alleviate the problem.

 

In any case, the main problem with the flurry of Staff Assistant messages (that for some odd reason always seems to come up only when there is something critical needing to be dealt with - must one of Murphy's postulates ) is that it is necessary to gain control of (i.e. - select) the group in question before issuing it any orders - and this is prevented by the recurring SA pop-ups. The other thing that typically complicates things is that other groups often demand attention within the sequence of SA messages, and so focus must be shifted to those... only thing is, there may be no way of knowing which group was originally needing attention - because typically it does not report the group name, and a lot of the dialogs don't allow me to "highlight" the group involved, so by the time all the other fires have been fought, it can be a problem backtracking to the earlier group(s) that needed attention. Anyway, it typically becomes a can of worms.

 

I guess my wish would be for a way to set aside the SA messages that require additional "manipulations", while reviewing and discarding the rest... or perhaps some way to sort or prioritize the advisories so they can be dealt with in an organized manner.

[mavfin]

On a similar tack to Don, i'll click 1:1, then hit '-' as soon as I can, to get to 0 time, so I can do what needs to be done w/o more staff boxes.

 

'

[VictorInThePacific]

only thing is, there may be no way of knowing which group was originally needing attention - because typically it does not report the group name, and a lot of the dialogs don't allow me to "highlight" the group involved,

 

I think that is incorrect. The critical issues are new contacts, where you have the "show" and "select" options, and ditto for "new orders wanted" situations. Keep in mind that the SA window can be moved to expose the map underneath. Did I mention that you should have some paper handy to write things down on?

[mavfin]

only thing is, there may be no way of knowing which group was originally needing attention - because typically it does not report the group name, and a lot of the dialogs don't allow me to "highlight" the group involved,

 

I think that is incorrect. The critical issues are new contacts, where you have the "show" and "select" options, and ditto for "new orders wanted" situations. Keep in mind that the SA window can be moved to expose the map underneath. Did I mention that you should have some paper handy to write things down on?

 

I keep a notepad file open for notes, and tend to not run huge groups around.

[TonyE]

If your decision is to give orders to a group that is currently selected, or you can select that group from the message window

then press and hold the appropriate keyboard 'F' key (eg F1 attack, F3 course edit) while you mouse click the 'select', 'continue' or '1:1' option in the staff message window. Keep the key board button down until you see that you are in the appropriate box for your desired orders.

You are a sneaky one, I keep learning new tricks from you!