Minesweeping

[Bertockamus]

I've set up some quick test games to try and do some minesweeping for a scenario I would like to do. I don't know if I am doing something wrong or if it is just the quality of units I am using. I am trying to hunt with the Canadian Kingston class MCDV's (PG) and as mentioned in their notes, they have "limited minehunting capabilities". They are outfitted with some minehunting gear but I always hit the mine before being able to "attack" the mine. They don't have any sonar so I've located the mines with a Halifax class, but when I send the Kingston ships in they always hit the mines.

 

Is this a function of their poor equipment (similar to RL) or is there something I am missing? I am using 250lb floating mines as the targets. I think the range for the minehunting loadout is 0.7, is it possible the mine attack range is greater then that and I will never be able to get close enough?

 

Thanks.

[CV32]

Is this a function of their poor equipment (similar to RL) or is there something I am missing? I am using 250lb floating mines as the targets. I think the range for the minehunting loadout is 0.7, is it possible the mine attack range is greater then that and I will never be able to get close enough? Thanks.

 

Its probably a function of the limitations in the sea mines and minesweeping models, more than anything. The range of the sea mine you're using is 0.5 nm, while the range of the minesweeping gear is 1.0 nm. Without a very good sonar set, however, it is extremely difficult and risky work.

 

I am careful about increasing the effectiveness of the minesweeping gear because it would make them very good at killing submarines (since the mines are modeled essentially as non-mobile submarines).

 

Likewise, I am careful about decreasing the effectiveness of the mines because we cannot hope to simulate the number and density of actual minefields. Hence, for every mine you destroy in HCE you've probably cleared a much larger field in RL.

 

I am, however, always open to suggestions about potentially improving the model.

[Joe K]

I also recently ran into issues with minesweeping in a couple of the WestPac demo scenarios.

 

While the Sea Dragon helos with applicable loadout seem to be quite proficient at eliminating mines, it seems that no other platform that I've tried has much -if any- success in attacking mines. In particular, as the main topic of this thread discusses, I was unable to find any way to employ minesweeper ships successfully against mines. I also found that ordinary ASW loadouts for helos and aircraft (generally torpedoes) allow attacks on the mines, but apparently never can hit them. No particular surprize, I suppose... but it leaves one to wonder just how to deal with mines when you have no Sea Dragons to play with.

 

So, my question is, are there any techniques that allow minesweeper ships (or alternatively ASW aircraft) to successfully engage mines? If so, please elaborate... but if not, what then?

 

Thanks!

[CV32]

I also recently ran into issues with minesweeping in a couple of the WestPac demo scenarios. While the Sea Dragon helos with applicable loadout seem to be quite proficient at eliminating mines, it seems that no other platform that I've tried has much -if any- success in attacking mines. In particular, as the main topic of this thread discusses, I was unable to find any way to employ minesweeper ships successfully against mines. I also found that ordinary ASW loadouts for helos and aircraft (generally torpedoes) allow attacks on the mines, but apparently never can hit them. No particular surprize, I suppose... but it leaves one to wonder just how to deal with mines when you have no Sea Dragons to play with. So, my question is, are there any techniques that allow minesweeper ships (or alternatively ASW aircraft) to successfully engage mines? If so, please elaborate... but if not, what then? Thanks!

 

The Sea Dragon helicopter uses the same generic minesweeping gear as the surface ships, in the DB. The only additional utility is the speed and immunity of the helicopter (no small thing, of course).

 

Minesweeping is much more effective on the surface when your ship has remotely operated vehicle (ROV) capability and a decent sonar set.

[Bertockamus]

Given that the Kingston class has no sonar set is it fair to say that they cannot effectively engage mines at all, even if spotted by other unit's sonars?

[CV32]

Given that the Kingston class has no sonar set is it fair to say that they cannot effectively engage mines at all, even if spotted by other unit's sonars?

 

There's no easy answer to that, but being able to detect, locate and destroy the mines from beyond their own effective range (0.5 nm) is the determinant of success without posing undue risk to the sweeper. I would say a Kingston could probably clear mines if it had the right kind of close support, but it would still be a tedious and probably risky exercise.

[Bertockamus]

Thanks for the replies. When I get a chance, I will play a little more and see if I can get those mines with the Kingstons.

[broncepulido]

In the old Harpoon Classic/Gold Edition, mines/submarines at periscope depth were detectables visually, I don't know if this capability is present in HCE.

[TonyE]

In the old Harpoon Classic/Gold Edition, mines/submarines at periscope depth were detectables visually, I don't know if this capability is present in HCE.

 

Should be

[Bertockamus]

I forgot to set a depth for the mines I was using in my test scenarios so I should look at that, thanks.

[Bertockamus]

Tried some minehunting and was able to get the 250lb mines when they were on the surface with the Kingstons.

[donaldseadog]

By coincidence I've just finished (more accurately I just got finished off) playing a WWs scenario I'm developing using brad's HCWW batabase and wiped out a mine field using some escorts (torpedoes and hedgehogs I think) and plane dropped light torps. Sonar isn't real good and you have to approach very slow. Visual obs from aircraft seemed to help to maintain absolute fix.

Don Thomas

[Akula]

Is this a function of their poor equipment (similar to RL) or is there something I am missing? I am using 250lb floating mines as the targets. I think the range for the minehunting loadout is 0.7, is it possible the mine attack range is greater then that and I will never be able to get close enough? Thanks.

 

Its probably a function of the limitations in the sea mines and minesweeping models, more than anything. The range of the sea mine you're using is 0.5 nm, while the range of the minesweeping gear is 1.0 nm. Without a very good sonar set, however, it is extremely difficult and risky work.

 

I am careful about increasing the effectiveness of the minesweeping gear because it would make them very good at killing submarines (since the mines are modeled essentially as non-mobile submarines).

 

Likewise, I am careful about decreasing the effectiveness of the mines because we cannot hope to simulate the number and density of actual minefields. Hence, for every mine you destroy in HCE you've probably cleared a much larger field in RL.

 

I am, however, always open to suggestions about potentially improving the model.

 

Some thoughts on this:

 

What about changing the DP for the mines to '1' and any anti-mine weapons similarly have their damage limited to 1. In this way, they would be fine for hunting 'mines' but be quite ineffectual versus regular submarines. Unless of course this is already the way it is done, I honestly have not gone poking through the DB lately so my memory is rather vague.

[donaldseadog]

Is this a function of their poor equipment (similar to RL) or is there something I am missing? I am using 250lb floating mines as the targets. I think the range for the minehunting loadout is 0.7, is it possible the mine attack range is greater then that and I will never be able to get close enough? Thanks.

 

Its probably a function of the limitations in the sea mines and minesweeping models, more than anything. The range of the sea mine you're using is 0.5 nm, while the range of the minesweeping gear is 1.0 nm. Without a very good sonar set, however, it is extremely difficult and risky work.

 

I am careful about increasing the effectiveness of the minesweeping gear because it would make them very good at killing submarines (since the mines are modeled essentially as non-mobile submarines).

 

Likewise, I am careful about decreasing the effectiveness of the mines because we cannot hope to simulate the number and density of actual minefields. Hence, for every mine you destroy in HCE you've probably cleared a much larger field in RL.

 

I am, however, always open to suggestions about potentially improving the model.

 

Some thoughts on this:

 

What about changing the DP for the mines to '1' and any anti-mine weapons similarly have their damage limited to 1. In this way, they would be fine for hunting 'mines' but be quite ineffectual versus regular submarines. Unless of course this is already the way it is done, I honestly have not gone poking through the DB lately so my memory is rather vague.

Would this make them vulnerable to being cleared by inappropriate weapons? e.g. you can sink them (because they are a submarine) with a small torpedo but in RL I'd think it unlikely for a torpedo to hit the mine as it is so different in size to the intended target (I could be wrong, I'm guessing).

I think the present works OK, if not perfect. It is tedious and slow work with the correct gear and unlikely to succeed with the wrong gear - at least that seems pretty realistic.

Don Thomas

[broncepulido]

That remembers me about my old efforts, in some DB, of implement drifting mines.

They are modelled as very slow long range straight-running torpedoes (range=54 nm (I don't remember as I obtain this range, it was something relative to endurance), speed=6 (for chase at least a ship at slow speed), and PH very low, between 2-6%), launched by mine capable ships, pretending to make hazardous hits.

Yes, I known the historical outcome of launch drifting mines in combat is near none, but it's only another idea ...