636 replies to this topic

[Mgellis]

Brad,

Thanks. Nice additions.

Just came up with a few ideas for the next version...

* SSN 23 Jimmy Carter (after modifications for carrying special ops teams, etc.; see HazeGray for details)

* Variant Israeli Dolphin submarine...there are rumors she can carry nuclear-tipped land attack cruise missiles. Why not include a version that does?

* Carrier-capable version of the A-4M Skyhawk

* My copy of Jane's ('91-'92) says the Super Etendard (France) was capable of carrying nuclear bombs AND the French nuclear standoff missile (separate loadouts) and could also carry Magic AA missiles; might be interesting to the give the French a carrier-based nuclear strike option by adding loadouts, huh?

* Ethiopia's Petya IIs (F 1616 and F 1617) and Turyas (HTB 112 and HTB 113). The Mols and the Osa IIs are already there. The classes for these vessels are already in the database; you just need to add the ships. (And the moment I thought of this I came up with a scenario idea...Ethiopia vs. Yemen!)

* Libya's Foxtrot submarines (active in 1990...you can probably just add units to the Export Foxtrot class; names are Al Badr, Al Fateh, Al Ahad, Al Mitraqa, Al Khyber, and Al Hunain)

* Romania's export Kilo (Delfin, active in 1990...you can probably simply add this unit to the Export Kilo class)

* Export version of the Mirage F-1 (used by Libya, Morocco, Greece, etc.) and the Mirage 2000 C/B (early export version used by Egypt).

* Soko IAR-93 (similar to the Super Galeb, but the Super Galeb is listed as an attack range of about 700 miles and a Ferry range of roughly 1000 miles; the IAR-93 only has a attack range of about 500 miles)

* L-59 (used by Egypt and Tunisia)

* Would it be worth adding Sri Lanka's OPVs and PGs?

* How about Kenya's missile boats? 2 Nyayo class and 4 Brooke Marine class (one appears to be a variant type, but I can't figure out how it is different than the other three).

That's all I can think of at the moment.

Thanks.

Mark

[CV32]

Just came up with a few ideas for the next version...
* SSN 23 Jimmy Carter (after modifications for carrying special ops teams, etc.; see HazeGray for details)

This should be ok. The pure SSN version will have to remain, though, in order to keep any older scenarios viable.

* Variant Israeli Dolphin submarine...there are rumors she can carry nuclear-tipped land attack cruise missiles. Why not include a version that does?

There's not enough information available about the nuclear armed Harpoon (or other weapon) to merit a new entry. Its existence is still conjecture, afaik, which makes it purely hypothetical at this point.

* Ethiopia's Petya IIs (F 1616 and F 1617) and Turyas (HTB 112 and HTB 113). The Mols and the Osa IIs are already there. The classes for these vessels are already in the database; you just need to add the ships. (And the moment I thought of this I came up with a scenario idea...Ethiopia vs. Yemen!)

No problem with the Petya II's. The Ethiopian Turya's are already there. And an Ethiopia vs Yemen scenario would be welcome.

* Libya's Foxtrot submarines (active in 1990...you can probably just add units to the Export Foxtrot class; names are Al Badr, Al Fateh, Al Ahad, Al Mitraqa, Al Khyber, and Al Hunain)

Consider it done. The Indian Foxtrots as well.

* Romania's export Kilo (Delfin, active in 1990...you can probably simply add this unit to the Export Kilo class)

OK.

* Would it be worth adding Sri Lanka's OPVs and PGs?

I will take a look at this.

* How about Kenya's missile boats? 2 Nyayo class and 4 Brooke Marine class (one appears to be a variant type, but I can't figure out how it is different than the other three).

I've been applying a general rule that unless the country appears on the HCCE map, I won't be adding platforms for it. Sorry.

* Export version of the Mirage F-1 (used by Libya, Morocco, Greece, etc.) and the Mirage 2000 C/B (early export version used by Egypt).
* Soko IAR-93 (similar to the Super Galeb, but the Super Galeb is listed as an attack range of about 700 miles and a Ferry range of roughly 1000 miles; the IAR-93 only has a attack range of about 500 miles)
* L-59 (used by Egypt and Tunisia)

The aircraft requests will have to be scrutinized more carefully than ships or submarines. We have very limited room remaining in the Loadouts annex. I will look at these, but at this point I am not sure if there is sufficient variation to merit their addition.

* Carrier-capable version of the A-4M Skyhawk

I will add the carrier capable flag to the existing A-4G entry instead.

* My copy of Jane's ('91-'92) says the Super Etendard (France) was capable of carrying nuclear bombs AND the French nuclear standoff missile (separate loadouts) and could also carry Magic AA missiles; might be interesting to the give the French a carrier-based nuclear strike option by adding loadouts, huh?

This one is probably doable, since it will share many loadouts with the existing Super Etendard Modernise entry.

Thanks for your requests. I try to incorporate as many as I can.

Brad

[Mgellis]

Brad,

Thanks for replying.

If you have to make a choice for the aircraft, I'd say the IAR-93 and the L-59 are relatively unimportant (basically, they're light attack aircraft that aren't a big part of any air force outside of Tunisia, where the L-59 makes up about 30% of its attack aircraft). They could be left out.

The big question for the F1 export is whether the French F1CT is different enough that one needs to add the extra aircraft. I don't know if the loadouts, sensors, etc. are the same or not. It is used by about six nations in the Middle East, so it may be worth adding if there are significant differences.

The HCDB is a remarkable achievement...it probably has at least 95% of the ships, subs, planes, bases, etc. that might be used in any scenario set between 1985 and 2015. (Just curious, what is the actual limit for when something is included? In service by 1985? In service by 1980?) I've tried to identify the various "gaps," platforms that might possibly be used, but maybe the more important questions are...

1) What additional Cold War ships, subs, and planes still need to be added? Which ones aren't already there and are likely to be needed?

2) What not-ready-yet platforms need to be added for scenarios set c. 2015?

Mark

[CV32]

Brad,
Thanks for replying. If you have to make a choice for the aircraft, I'd say the IAR-93 and the L-59 are relatively unimportant (basically, they're light attack aircraft that aren't a big part of any air force outside of Tunisia, where the L-59 makes up about 30% of its attack aircraft).  They could be left out.  The big question for the F1 export is whether the French F1CT is different enough that one needs to add the extra aircraft.  I don't know if the loadouts, sensors, etc. are the same or not.  It is used by about six nations in the Middle East, so it may be worth adding if there are significant differences.

If there are a large number of shared loadouts, then it becomes more likely that I can add the export variant(s).

The HCDB is a remarkable achievement...it probably has at least 95% of the ships, subs, planes, bases, etc. that might be used in any scenario set between 1985 and 2015.  (Just curious, what is the actual limit for when something is included?  In service by 1985?  In service by 1980?)

There is no hard and fast rule, but generally I look for a platform that was in service in 1980.

I've tried to identify the various "gaps," platforms that might possibly be used, but maybe the more important questions are...
1) What additional Cold War ships, subs, and planes still need to be added?  Which ones aren't already there and are likely to be needed? 
2) What not-ready-yet platforms need to be added for scenarios set c. 2015?

Sounds like a project for someone. I am still looking for these things myself everyday.

[Mgellis]

Brad,

Thanks for the newest HCDB.

A few more ideas (and a couple of questions)...

The newest C-130 is in the INTL section of the database, but I cannot find an export version of the first generation(s). I mention this only because the American version has Rangers as its "weapon," which other countries would not have. (The generic light airborne platoon loadout used with other transports would probably work fine.)

The CN-235MPA has been included, but I can't find the CN-235M (the transport version)...this became an issue because I was writing a scenario involving Turkey. Is the CN-235M in the database? I may have just missed it. If not, could it be added? (It sounds like its "weapon" is one light airborne platoon.)

Question...is the MiG-29UB the same as the Mig29-A in the database? (It's the version flown by countries like Syria and Romania.) Also, I'm guessing the SE type, flown by Malaysia, is the same as the Mig29-S ("Fulcrum C") in the database? I just want to make sure I'm using the right aircraft.

Thanks.

Mark

[CV32]

Brad,
Thanks for the newest HCDB.

You're welcome. Btw, you'll find your Mirage F1 and Mirage 2000 requests in the next iteration of the HCDB. 17 different versions of them, in fact.

A few more ideas (and a couple of questions)...
The newest C-130 is in the INTL section of the database, but I cannot find an export version of the first generation(s).  I mention this only because the American version has Rangers as its "weapon," which other countries would not have.  (The generic light airborne platoon loadout used with other transports would probably work fine.)

I will add a generic "international" loadout to the basic (US) C-130 entry.

The CN-235MPA has been included, but I can't find the CN-235M (the transport version)...this became an issue because I was writing a scenario involving Turkey.  Is the CN-235M in the database?  I may have just missed it.  If not, could it be added?  (It sounds like its "weapon" is one light airborne platoon.)

I will add the transport version of the CN-235.

Question...is the MiG-29UB the same as the Mig29-A in the database?  (It's the version flown by countries like Syria and Romania.)  Also, I'm guessing the SE type, flown by Malaysia, is the same as the Mig29-S ("Fulcrum C") in the database?  I just want to make sure I'm using the right aircraft.

The MiG-29UB is the Fulcrum B trainer variant. The MiG-29N type flown by Malaysia is already in the HCDB, but yes, the MiG-29SE is the export version of the MiG-29S Fulcrum C (also known as the 9.13S standard).

[Mgellis]

Brad,
Thanks for the newest HCDB.

You're welcome. Btw, you'll find your Mirage F1 and Mirage 2000 requests in the next iteration of the HCDB. 17 different versions of them, in fact.

A few more ideas (and a couple of questions)...
The newest C-130 is in the INTL section of the database, but I cannot find an export version of the first generation(s).  I mention this only because the American version has Rangers as its "weapon," which other countries would not have.  (The generic light airborne platoon loadout used with other transports would probably work fine.)

I will add a generic "international" loadout to the basic (US) C-130 entry.

The CN-235MPA has been included, but I can't find the CN-235M (the transport version)...this became an issue because I was writing a scenario involving Turkey.  Is the CN-235M in the database?  I may have just missed it.  If not, could it be added?  (It sounds like its "weapon" is one light airborne platoon.)

I will add the transport version of the CN-235.

Question...is the MiG-29UB the same as the Mig29-A in the database?  (It's the version flown by countries like Syria and Romania.)  Also, I'm guessing the SE type, flown by Malaysia, is the same as the Mig29-S ("Fulcrum C") in the database?  I just want to make sure I'm using the right aircraft.

The MiG-29UB is the Fulcrum B trainer variant. The MiG-29N type flown by Malaysia is already in the HCDB, but yes, the MiG-29SE is the export version of the MiG-29S Fulcrum C (also known as the 9.13S standard).

Ooooo....sounds like the next HCDB will be a lot of fun to play with. Lots of options for small- or medium-sized regional conflicts. (The C-130 will be especially useful. I understand something like 60 countries fly them, so they can be used in a lot of scenarios.) Thank you.

Am I correct in assuming that the Mig-29UB is basically a Mig-29A with an extra seat (for an instructor) and can be used for combat, and that I can simply use the Fulcrum A in the database to represent it in scenarios? Or should I use a different aircraft?

(Sheesh, at this rate, you'll be adding 17 versions of the Mig-29, too!)

Thanks.

Mark

[CV32]

Am I correct in assuming that the Mig-29UB is basically a Mig-29A with an extra seat (for an instructor) and can be used for combat, and that I can simply use the Fulcrum A in the database to represent it in scenarios?

Essentially the same, except the MiG-29UB had no radar and no combat capability.

[Mgellis]

Am I correct in assuming that the Mig-29UB is basically a Mig-29A with an extra seat (for an instructor) and can be used for combat, and that I can simply use the Fulcrum A in the database to represent it in scenarios?

Essentially the same, except the MiG-29UB had no radar and no combat capability.

Hmmmm....so I'm guessing putting them in a scenario wouldn't make much sense. Let me guess...if an aircraft has "U" in the designation, it probably means either "utility" or "unarmed," right?

I love the International Directory of Military Aircraft (a great reference work for scenario design), but I wish it wouldn't do things like list Romania's MiG29's as 12 MiG29A/UB. That means, I suppose, that there are 12 MiG29s, but no one knows how many of them are A's and how many of them are UB's. (I guess the Romanians know, but they're not telling. The nerve of some people.)

Mark

[CV32]

I love the International Directory of Military Aircraft (a great reference work for scenario design), but I wish it wouldn't do things like list Romania's MiG29's as 12 MiG29A/UB.  That means, I suppose, that there are 12 MiG29s, but no one knows how many of them are A's and how many of them are UB's.  (I guess the Romanians know, but they're not telling.  The nerve of some people.)

Oh, I don't think the information is all that elusive ...

Romania received its first batch of MiG-29 Fulcrums (two single-seat Fulcrum A and two dual-seat MiG-29UB Fulcrum just a few weeks before the revolution in December 1989. Due to the revolution, the first operational flight didn't occur until 6 April 2002, and by that time, four more Fulcrum A's and two more Fulcrum B's had been delivered. The Romanians received a total of 21 MiG-29s, including a MiG-29 Type 9-13 (a Fulcrum C) received from Moldova in 1992 to pay off part of its debt. The last MiG-29 was delivered in 1994.

The Fulcrums were operated by Baza 57 Aeriana Vanatoare (57th Fighter Airbase) at Mihail Kogalniceanu airport, which is near Constanta on the Black Sea. There were two squadrons: No.2 and No.3 Escadrila.

Three aircraft have been lost in accidents: a single-seater crashed in March 1994 and a two-seater crashed in July 1992. (Both were fatal). A brand new single-seat Fulcrum was destroyed by an engine fire on the ground in Autumn 1990. The Romanian air force wanted the Sniper upgrade but it was too expensive. The last serviceable MiG-29UB was damaged on 22 October 1998, when the gear prematurely retracted during takeoff. The pilots, one Romanian and one French, ejected safely.

It was announced on 21 January 2003 that the remaining fleet of 18 MiG-29s would be retired, and the 57th would convert to the MiG-21 Lancers. All the Fulcrums were grounded immediately. Baza 57 Aeriana was formally disbanded on 22 April 2004. Then, on 20 July 2004, it was announced that MiG-29s were to be sold (though finding a buyer will likely prove difficult).

There ya go, Romanian MiG-29 Fulcrum history in a nutshell.

[Mgellis]

[quote name='CV32' date='Dec 27 2005, 09:45 PM'][quote]

There ya go, Romanian MiG-29 Fulcrum history in a nutshell. [/quote]

Thanks. That actually lets me know what I needed to know for the Turkey vs. Romania/Ukraine scenario I'm working on right now.

Just curious...what sources did you use?

Mark

[CV32]

I use a wide variety of sources, but one of the best for "order of battle" information is Air Forces Monthly.

[Akula]

Here's another DB request.

Could we have some generic AAA batteries in the 20, 23, 30, 40, and 57mm flavors? Non-mobile is fine as fair as I am concernced. I believe these systems are still in fairly widespread use in third-world countries.

I'd add them myself, but the PE is not cooperating with me ATM. More on that in another thread.

[CV32]

We already have the 23mm and 57mm flavours in the ZSU-23 and S-60 systems, but yes, I was planning on adding some "Western" calibers like the 20mm, 30mm and 40mm. Thanks for your request.

[Mgellis]

We already have the 23mm and 57mm flavours in the ZSU-23 and S-60 systems, but yes, I was planning on adding some "Western" calibers like the 20mm, 30mm and 40mm. Thanks for your request.

I'm really looking forward to the next HCDB.

A few more requests, if there is time to get them in...

* RAH-66 Comanche

* Kawasaki C-1 transport (Japan)

* French Commandant Riviere frigates (6 active in 1990)

* Australian Bay Class minehunters (2 active in 1990)

* Are there any other S-60/S-70 helicopter variants that need to be added?

The following classes are mine warfare ships that have been transferred or sold to navies around the world; the real value of adding them to the database would be to provide mine warfare ships for various nations that don't have them yet (at least, they don't have them in the HCDB)...scenarios could include having these nations hunting mines in their waters OR other nations hunting the minesweepers to keep them from destroying the mines that they had put in place to attack enemy shipping.

* Yurka minesweeper (Russia/USSR) <-- mostly because some have been sold to countries like Egypt and Vietnam; non-Russian names should be provided if possible

* T-43 minesweeper (Russia/USSR) <-- sales/transfers to Bulgaria, China, Egypt, Indonesia, and Syria; non-Russian names should be provided if possible

* Sonya minesweeper (Russia/USSR) <-- sales/transfers to Bulgaria, Ethiopia, Vietnam, and Syria

* Vanya minesweeper <-- transfers to Bulgaria, Syria, and Vietnam

* Yevgenya minehunters <-- various transfers to other nations, including Syria, Yemen, Bulgaria, and Vietnam

* Adjutant minesweeper <-- used by Spain, Greece, Turkey, and maybe others; these should be included with the current (i.e., non-American) names; a lot of them were active in 1990

* MSC 294 minesweeper <-- same kind of ship, ex-US transferred to various navies around the world; these should be included with the non-American names

I can't think of any more right now.

It's a shame we don't have maps for the Mid- and South Atlantic regions (i.e., Latin America and West Africa and Antarctica)...lots of really interesting scenarios could be built for those regions.

Thanks again, Brad, for your ongoing efforts.

Mark